Episode 46 - Alice Penn, MD - Never Too Old... Never Too Late

Hey Uncommon leaders, welcome back!.  This is the Uncommon Leader Podcast 

On Episode 46, I have a great guest lined up for you.  Doctor Alice Penn is an expert international coach and speaker that has journeyed from Medical Doctor to Finance executive to business owner.  In this episode, Alice details how she overcame personal battles with mental & physical illness as well divorce, and how she picked the pieces up and started again, because as she says “You’re never too old and it’s never too late”.  Alice is an expert in the art and science of change and knows what it takes to ‘level-up’ both personally and professionally.  Having worked with executives from many of the large consulting companies, her reputation as a highly intuitive and top-tier professional carried through from the bedsides of her patients all the way to the board level of her clients.

It was a GREAT conversation.  Alice’s transparency about her personal battles that she has overcome were both inspirational and encouraging.  She is acutely aware that we are all capable of so much more than we realize.  I encourage you to go out and follow Dr. Alice Penn on social media where she is very active.  I have placed links to her platforms in the show notes.

Website  www.alicepennmd.com

Instagram @alicepenn_md  https://www.instagram.com/alicepenn_md/

YouTube @alicepennmd  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf52e7Rl41BBEEbVcM-ZgtQ

LinkedIn Alice Penn MD https://www.linkedin.com/in/alice-penn-md-86561228/

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Transcript

0:00

Hey, uncommon leaders. Welcome back. This is The Uncommon Leader Podcast, and I'm your host, John Gallagher. Today on episode 46, I've got a great guest lined up for you. Dr. Alice Penn is an expert international coaching speaker that has journeyed from medical doctor to finance executive to business owner. In this episode, Alice details how she overcame personal battles with mental and physical illness, as well as divorce, and how she picked up the pieces and started over again because as she says, you're never too old and it's never too late. Alice is an expert in the art and science of change and knows what it takes to level up both personally and professionally. Having worked with executives from many of the large consulting companies, her reputation is a highly intuitive and top tier professional carried through from the bedsides of her patients all the way to the board level of her clients. You're going to love hearing from her today. Let's get started. Alice Penn, welcome to the Uncommon Leader Podcast. It's great to have you a guest on the show today. How are you? Hi John. I'm doing really well. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really delighted and grateful to be here. Absolutely. Well, I'm looking forward to our conversation today. I know based on what I've read up and and learned about you, you've got a great story to tell, but I'll always start my first time guess with the same question, and I'll ask you the same way I ask. Being that we're talking with groups of leaders who are out there, tell me a story from your youth or childhood that still impacts who you are as a leader. So I was thinking about this and there isn't actually one specific thing that has happened, but one of the first things that people might need to know about me is I'm actually from Cape Town South Africa now, when I was growing up here, we were in the middle of apartheid. So apart I ended in 1994. So just to give you an idea of my age, I started school in 1980. So I spent a great deal of my childhood living where we were kept really separate. Um, and this had an, uh, profound impact on me. The reason is that, uh, White people lived in certain areas and we were kept separate from everybody else who wasn't white in terms of schooling, buses, beaches, you name it, shopping centers, and what happened is it really set up for me in my mind as a child, this big difference. There's a big difference between us and them. But it really got me thinking because people of color would come into where we would live and work for us, work with us. And it always made me wonder when I would see everybody going home in the evening, where was everybody going to, I was aware that there was a big difference between us and I had no idea and I couldn't really picture it. And I, it used to get my imagination going and think I wonder. Where this person lives and who their mother is, and do they have a brother or sister, and what do they have for dinner and what are they, what is their life like? And because of that, um, it's got me, I think I just developed, I don't wanna call it a curiosity, but it made me realize that each person is an individual human. With their own story, waking up every morning with their hopes, with their dreams, facing their own challenges and battles. And I think it was purely so highlighted to me because I was so aware there is a big difference between us really privileged people and the people that are being so awfully oppressed. And I think I took that with. Into my medical career. And then again when I moved into finance, and I was reminded about this recently because I heard the chairman of the firm that I used to work for on a podcast talking about his view of leadership. And one of the things, and I happen to know him, is that he believes in always remembering that each person who comes across. Is a person with their own hopes and their dreams fighting their own battles. And so when he is the chairman is in the lift with the really junior people, he always makes eye contact. He greets people because he hasn't forgotten what it's like just to be that person with their own hopes, dreams, and ambitions. And so for me, in my role as a leader, I feel that I've taken that with me. The idea. Everybody in the team has their own story, has their own dreams, has their own battle that they might be fighting, and just remembering that we are all, after all people. So that's, that's I think, the big impact that I've had from growing up here in South Africa. Alice, I appreciate you sharing that story and, and just as I listen through that, the, you know, again, you used the, you used. It wasn't curiosity. What I hear in there is certainly an acute awareness as a very young person as to the differences that were there, and then to recognize that in the types of careers that you've had to choose, realizing that everybody has a story, especially as a primary care physician. And we'll talk about your journey here in just a little bit financializing. And now as a coach, that has to ultimately take into account all the differences and, and each individual has their own story, so generating that awareness. Realizing that each person is unique is pretty powerful. Thanks for sharing that and even thanks for sharing that from a leadership perspective, someone who's had an influence on you as well in that journey. So as we go through the conversation, I think, I think your journey is important for the listeners to understand, and I even now probably understand more as I listen to that story. How you would be aware and wanting to learn other people's stories. You've, you've taken quite a unique path from physician into finance and now into coaching. Tell me a little, and maybe even more than that, if you look at your LinkedIn profile in terms of those things, but tell me a little bit about your journey. Go back as far as you want to and how we ended up basically on this conversation today. So I usually go back to when I was a child because it's, I think it's useful to know that I was born into a family with a father who is an accomplished doctor. Um, a mother who has many degrees but is a homemaker. So very educated parents. And I was the eldest child and I guess I was your pretty typical eldest child type a personality. So, um, I'm not saying I wasn't without my mischief, but I certainly did do well at school. Um, and when it got to about the age that everybody starts looking. What I think in America, you call college. Here we call university. I really didn't know what I wanted to do, so I was also quite a perfectionistic child, so I would always be trying to do things really well and be really good. And so I thought now the other children are doing well, seem to be doing, doing medicine. Lots of people we knew were doctors and it just seemed to me like this would make me perhaps. I was quite an insecure person. Perhaps it would sort of make me a good person. This would be a good thing to do. Um, and I decided to apply and when I got in I thought, now I have this opportunity, I'd better take it. But to put it in perspective, I was 17 on my first day of medical school. Cause I was at school quite young. I started quite young. So I really did not know what I was doing. Um, and I could say, Probably from about second year onwards, I had this feeling that I wonder if I've made the right choice. But being the sort of person I was prone to a little bit of anxiety and worry and doubting myself. I thought, no, this is something, it's something wrong with me. I just need to focus. Get on with it. Of course, it's gonna be difficult. It wasn't that it was difficult that was bothering me. I just felt, I just don't know if this is the right fit for me. But anyway, I persevered. It's not like my parents forced me to, but they certainly had the expectation that I was gonna not just give up halfway through and do something else. Then I left medical school and here in South Africa we do something called community service just alluding to the levels of oppression that we've had and poverty in the country. We go and work in the more rural hospitals for a while to give back and it is an amazing experience. I did that and my houseman years residency years. Moved over to London. Got to London, thought, great. This is a fresh start. I'm gonna think about whether I wanna do something else. I actually started interviewing at different banks, but at the last minute. I got offered an amazing role in a private practice in the middle of the financial district. So I thought, okay, this could be the best of both worlds. I could perhaps bring some sort of business, um, role or ex, you know, get some kind of business experience running this practice. And I'm in the financial district, in the city, in London, um, and the pay was really good and I was still really young and I just got tempted and thought that's what I'm gonna do. And I had a really wonderful. Experience as a physician in the practice. I grew my list. I had, you know, a great set of patients that I would see. However, I still couldn't shift that niggling feeling that I wasn't in the right place for me, and it did start to take its toll. So I felt that I was really. Although I was good at what I did, I felt that I wasn't, it wasn't my natural home. I wasn't making the most of, of, of what I thought I had inside me in terms of my skills and gifts. At the same time, I was quite newly married. And, um, unfortunately my husband suffered with addiction problems, and so my personal life really started to struggle at the same time. So I was working harder and harder trying to manage what was going on at home, and frankly, my physical health and mental health took a knock. So I reached the point that I actually used to wake up and think, I hope something happens to me on the way to work, cuz I dunno if I can deal with another day with my patients. And instead of paying attention to these signs, I just pushed on through until I reached a point where I actually was forced. I need to take some time out. But the good thing about that was that it allowed me to reconsider what I wanted to do. So I actually made the big career pivot. I reached out to my network. I knew a lot of people in the city, and I got a truly fantastic job at one of the big four firms, and I actually got pulled into the corporate finance team, the deals team back with healthcare clients. So that was a fantastic opportunity and we can talk about it perhaps later, but moving from. Having a leadership role in medicine to a leadership in corporate. Two very different things. Mm-hmm. right? yes. Very much so. I learned, I learned a lot of lessons there, hard lessons. And I had a great career there at the firm. Um, progressed quickly. Did, did well. Unfortunately, I hadn't completely addressed some of the issues in my personal life, and I'm a little bit, as I said earlier, perfection. I struggled with my perfectionism. I was working harder and harder and harder. I think trying to sort of almost block out what was going on in my personal life, and again, reached a point where I thought, you know, my marriage actually unfortunately did fall apart after about 11 years, and at that point I thought, I'm actually gonna. Go home. It was a very cold, dark winter in London. It was, I was on my own, my health was suffering, and I was away from the support that I needed. And I packed two suitcases and I flew back to Cape Town. My sister just had her second baby and I thought, you know what? Let me just go back and figure out where I'm at. And that's where it began the journey to say, okay. I've got my medical experience, I've got my finance and commercial advisory experience. What do I do with myself? And that's when I start to really for the first time, dig deep and think about what have I got to offer? What is my uniqueness? What is, what can I do to serve others? And through that work, I decided, Work as a coach. Um, and my role is to really help people. They're normally professionals who, like me, feel like they had more, to have more to give, that they haven't yet fulfilled their true potential. And to help them find the sort of professional path that will allow them to be at their best in their work, to express their unique gifts, to find more fulfillment and purpose. Earn what they are worth. So that's what I, that's the kind of long story about where I am today. What a story, Alice. This is great and yeah, you've given me many avenues or streets to drive down in terms of questions. I will come back to the difference in leading in medical versus finance or in medical versus the corporate world, cuz I experienced that as well on from a different perspective. I didn't come from a doctor's perspective, but came into consult with groups of doctors in healthcare. Quite fascinating in and of itself. And you know, as I listen to your journey, it's, it's one thing to talk about. Areas that you worked in, medical versus finance and now coaching and and or teaching and speaking, and the differences there. Recognizing that when you were working in healthcare, you didn't necessarily work in your area of passion. While you may have been very good at it. Very intelligent, very good at it. It wasn't something that was bringing you reward inside, inside of some of that work. But here's some of the other things I picked up when you talked about as, as, as a perfectionist, as a type A personality, insecure doubt or self doubt, worry, um, all those different. Elements of things that were going on as well. Have nothing to do with the field of work that you had chosen, but were things that impacted your story and who you were. And we've got a mutual mentor and Rory Vaden who says, you know, we are most powerfully positioned to help the person that we once were. And I'm going to assume in reading through and listening to your story, that because of some of the experiences that you've had, some of them really good and some of them ones that you may or may not want to repeat that, that allows you to help others. So tell me about that. Have you actually learned more in your experience in healthcare and finance or more in your experience of your story to help your current clients? Look, I think that the common thread between medicine and finance is just consulting advisory, talking to somebody, listening, making a diagnosis, or understanding what the problem is, working with them to create a plan and to follow it through. So that's the kind of. Experience that's helpful in, in the work that I do, but I can say in terms of how I help people now and how I've probably always helped people the most in my life is. Is from that place of your best place to serve the person you once were. Um, in fact, when I heard though that phrase on a podcast, I was walking near the sea here in, in South Africa and it literally stopped me in my tracks and that's when I decided this is what I need to do. So I really feel that the story is a big thing because, uh, although I. On paper, a successful person, educated. I've been lucky enough, you know, I come from a privileged background, so, you know, I've been lucky to have the education that I've had. I, I fully acknowledge that, but I have also had some really low points and sometimes it's very difficult to admit that. And I think that vulnerability helps people to say, I've, I returned South Africa with two suitcases, and that was. And felt like a failure and I had to start again. And you, no matter what position you're in, you too can, can make a change in your life. There's a saying I like, you're never too old. And it's never too late, because I really believe that, you know, each day is another day to start again. Never too old, and it's never too late. Amen. Alice, as I listened through that, and I think you're exactly right that I believe that the common thread across any industry is that advisory piece and understanding that we can teach a bunch of tools, but your uniqueness is your story. Absolutely. And what you're able to share and those, those things that are really cool and I'm quite sure that that's very helpful to you. I would ask this, and maybe that's how you get connected to'em. As you, as you coach professionally today then, and you look at the society. So we're post Covid world. You really got started inside of coaching. Uh, many much of your story is pre covid world or you know, going from remote, whatever all the differences are. As you coach professionals today, what are some of the challenges that you see that, that they have? Are they the same ones that you faced or are they different in terms of what you're helping them to over. Truthfully, I feel that it's much the same. Um, actually the first thing that I do with my clients is kind of the diagnosis piece, but I like to call it solving for stuck. So why are you coming to me in the first place? What is really underlying this? Why are you in a place that you feel that you haven't quite yet made the most of your God-given gifts? Why? What's holding you back? And the the reasons that I see holding people back I don't feel have really. Since, you know, I went through the same thing myself, whether it's self-limiting beliefs, whether it is. Around, um, perfectionism, whether it is around, uh, what I call the paradox of success, where you spent, you become very, very good at doing something so good that you're the go-to person for that thing. Unfortunately, it may not be the thing that you really want to be doing, or is from your kind of zone of genius. Mm-hmm. So you work really, really hard. The more, the better you get, the more demands on your time. Um, and what happens is two things can happen. You can either. Become so overwhelmed that you can actually paradox. Perform less well, or you also have very limited time and bandwidth because of the sort of exterior exhaustion you start to experience to explore what you should be doing. So a lot of people are caught up in that, um, something called the sunk cost fallacy, which something I struggled with. So you go to medical school, it costs you, it costs the government, it costs your family, um, a lot of time and a lot of. And every year and all the extra qualifications that you get, it's a big investment. So I think lawyers experience the same thing. People in finance, most people, I've spent so much time and money on this route now for me to change, am I just throwing that all away? I think that's a big, a big thing, hold people back. So I feel that it is pretty much the same sort of things, keeping people stuck. Okay. I appreciate you sharing that and I, and I think about that as I look at your bio. Have identified states, you're the a master in the art and science of change. So you talk, you used that word change as well. You help people solve for stuck. There are different, different tools within that that you use to help them out. What are you researching today to continue to learn and, and stay, uh, abreast of the different science and art of change today? When you asked me about whether my was my story or my, uh, professional experience that helped me with my clients, what I can tell you is I have developed a real passion for neuroscience. And this came from the fact that when I came back to South Africa and I was at this really low point in my life and I had been struggling with mental health and physical health problems for many, many years, um, I. Was told by some health professionals, we don't think you're gonna get much better than this. You're kind of stuck. Your brain is quite fixed in this place, and I. Felt that I could not accept that I felt that there was still a purpose for me on the on planet Earth, and I needed to find what that was. And I decided as a scientific person, I'm gonna turn to the science because I was taught at medical school that your brain is pretty fixed from the age of 25. But since I left medical school, there's been a lot of work in neuroplasticity. I do bring a very strong neuroscience type approach to my work to help people understand that you are not just one and done. This is not just you. You can make change. You just need to know how to do it. And I try and do it with really practical scientific tools. So where I spend a lot of my time with my research is around the neuroscience and around, because my experience of coaching. Personally has been quite mixed. I've sometimes found that I have a coach and we speak for hours and hours for months, and nothing really changes. So it is really my, my hope to give people science-based tools that will create the change that they're dreaming of. Uh, so that's the area that at the moment I'm spending most of my research. Thank you for sharing that. You actually led right into the next question because working with your clients, In each one of you, do you have a specific client success story that you're truly proud of in the work that you've done in this space? Off the top of my head, I have a gentleman I've been helping for a while. He's in engineering and he runs big construction projects and he's been really. And happy for a long time. And actually you, you tend to learn a lot of the personal stories behind, um, people's background when they come in. And he's also gone through divorce and all sorts of other struggles. But he has actually, um, found an amazing new role, which is a real step up from where he was with a different organization. So he has, um, Stayed in a similar industry, but found an organization that's better suited and a role that plays to his strength. So a lot of the work we did was to figure out where would he be and boom. More in his genius zone. So we did that and we did a lot of research on what sort of industry. So he's done that, but at the same time he has a real passion for sustainability and he has started a a side hustle in sustainable products here in South Africa, which I think. Would be his big dream. But you know, I wanna help people not just quit their jobs and then be left. You know, they've gotta help their children get through school. And so this was a practical approach that has allow him to bring in the financial income that he needs and a lot more than he was doing, and at the same time, continue to invest in something he's passionate about, which will hopefully in a few years, bring him additional revenue. So for me, Also because he was in such a terrible state when I first met him. For me it was a big success to see somebody really turn their life around. He's got an amazing relationship with his children, now met somebody else, and it's just great to see somebody thriving. Those, those are good stories for coaches, right? And you hear that story, it makes you smile. I mean, I can. Even though we're only the only audio that can see that smile on your face as you go through, and you also touched on those ones that just don't seem to get it as you go forward. But I think, you know, I'm, I'm gonna ask you a question about the science of it because it, it might be the time, it doesn't happen overnight for everybody. One of the authors that I read last year, uh, had a, had a quote in his book and the monkey sold his Ferrari. Uh, he said, when the student is ready, the teacher, teacher will. Some take. Sometimes it takes more time. So tell me a little bit about your program that you use. You mentioned that you do a diagnostic on the front end. You call your coaching program, success r Rx redefine your professional path. How is it that you help your clients, uh, redefine their professional path? So I've got seven modules and we do it over a four to six month period. And when you work with me, you get a few calls a month and workbooks and you know, all sorts of resources. So it's not just a sort of talking, there's a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes and. As I mentioned earlier, I start with solving for stuck. What is it that's actually holding you back? Um, and dig into some of the self-limiting beliefs and start to look at exercises to challenge those. And then I move onto the science of change and again, get really practical about how to really prep. And prime the brain and start rewiring up those new pathways to actually start to create some change. Because if you don't do those first two steps, then what happens is you start moving into the stage where you're looking at what sort of path is right for you, but you haven't actually started to change the. The, um, the firing in your brain. So you still, you're trying to make decisions from something in the past and you actually kind of need to shift to a future identity. So that's a big part of what we do. Um, a lot of it comes from a story of Victor Frankel, but the, um, this idea of a future you that you need a future identity. To base your daily actions on rather than from what's happened before. Love that. Then we move into the bit, the, the, the module that everybody really loves, which is the finding of genius. What's your superpower? What makes a unique Cause? Most people, especially if you've been studying for many, many years, working really hard, you haven't often stopped to think. What makes me unique? What is my superpower? What is my gift? And a lot of people feel really stuck. So there's a whole lot of exercises we do to go to go through that. And then I actually move on to saying, okay, now what do you really want? Because if you don't. Have a clear direction. Now, it doesn't need to be, we all know in life that things don't always work out the way we plan, but we do need to have a direction because if you don't have a focus, you may land up in something that isn't right for you. So I get, again, I'm quite practical. What do you really need to earn? Where do you need to live? What is your lifestyle like? What are your values? What are, what do you need from the, the environment where you're working? And let's make sure that whatever path we put you on is gonna take you to that place. The next step is all about creating opportunities, not just writing a resume and pinging it off to a whole lot of jobs, boards and getting frustrated and upset because no one's getting back to you. It's a very basic skill called making connections and speaking to people. But you'll be surprised. People are very reticent. No, no. I just wanna send my CV out. Mm-hmm. I said, look, you've gotta pick up the phone, you've gotta connect with people. And now I. Yes, we've come out of a pandemic, but you could speak to people all over the world. Um, I've made many friends, uh, via Zoom during this pandemic who live all over the world. So I encourage people to, and I have a sort of system and show them how to get out there and start doing that. Okay. Um, and then we also go through a, uh, this is comes from my finance days, uh, business case appraisal type idea. But we have a list of options and we appraise them and we. Maybe one to three as the preferred way forwards. Explore them and combining that with your networking to start to look for opportunities. Um, and this is how all of my people have found the right role for them or the business that they may want to start or whatever it is. And then my final, uh, module is just all about. Venting us getting stuck again, how to continue to grow, um, and, and that sort of thing. So yeah, that's kind of the overview. No, thank you for sharing those steps. And it is one of those that, you know, at the very end, it's almost one of those, okay, I've gone through it now. What's the next one as well? Always preparing for that. And I love the discussion of, you know, what I would refer to as the articulated future. What can you see yourself doing when you're working in your area of genius, when you're working in I, that can be very good. And if you can get the mindset to look to that future state versus some of the bad things that have happened in the past, yeah, that can absolutely be, uh, something that generates a significant amount of momentum in life. So I appreciate you sharing that. And I'm curious, so as we come down to the end of our time, Alice, as we go forward, how do people then stay in touch with you and learn, learn more about your. So simply going to my website, alice pen md.com, and on the site you'll see there's many buttons to book a free call because I offer anybody who's interested in working with me, one free strategy call where I can see how much I can help you on the call. And it's no pressure, no obligation, and um, Feel free to just book a call anytime. I also have a fun little quiz on the site, which is if you're thinking about doing something in your professional life, what sort of career change personality are you? And it gives you some tips and ideas and really practical things that you can take forward. Um, on Instagram, on Alice Payne, under Underscore md, and if you look for Alice Pain md I have recently launched my YouTube, which is slowly taking off, but I really love doing it. And uh, yeah, take a look. Lots of free content to dive into. Thank you for sharing that. Well, let me, let me finish up and I appreciate and, and really, uh, value the time that you've invested with the listeners of the Uncommon Leader Podcast. And I finished everybody up with the same question, just like I finished with the same first question. You might have told us the answer already, so who might become a back, but I'm gonna give you a billboard anywhere you wanna put that billboard that millions of people are gonna see. And I'm curious, what would you put on that billboard and, and why would you put it. So I normally say it's never too old and you're never too late, but I actually have thought about recently, I had my own experience with the billboard that changed my life. It was more of a. Poster or a sign on a bridge. And I told you I was having such a difficult time in London on my own, and it was dark and I was walking across a, um, big lake or river in one of the royal parks and there's a stone bridge. And I was walking of the bridge in the dark and I saw, and I was really at a low point in my life just thinking, what am I gonna do with myself? And I saw this sign and it said, don't quit. Now, it may be one second too. And that just made me realize you just, you, you may always just be one step away from the good happening that you, that you've been working towards. So just that, keeping that one step cuz you don't know what is is about to happen. And I take that into my day, literally every single day. I appreciate that. Alice, thank you so much for sharing and thank you for sharing your time today with the Uncommon Leader podcast listeners. I look forward to staying in touch with you in the. Thanks, John. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for having me. That was a great conversation. Alice's transparency about her personal battles that she's overcome were both inspirational and encourag. She's acutely aware that we are all capable of so much more than we realize. I encourage you to go out and follow Dr. Alice Penn on social media where she is very active. I've placed links to her platforms in the show notes for you. Thanks for listening in to The Uncommon Leader Podcast and making it part of your personal development journey. I'm sure there was value in it for you, and I'm confident that you know someone who needs to hear this message. So I've got a couple favors to ask you. First, share this podcast with that someone you know that you thought of when you heard it. And secondly, consider leaving the podcast to review, which will help to make the podcast more available to uncommon leaders just like you. Until next time, go and grow champions.