The Uncommon Leader Podcast
Are you ready to break free from mediocrity and lead an extraordinary life? Join us on The Uncommon Leadership Podcast as we explore the power of intentionality in personal and professional growth. Our podcast features insightful interviews with inspiring leaders from all walks of life, sharing their stories of overcoming challenges and achieving greatness.
Discover practical strategies to:
- Think positively and cultivate a growth mindset
- Live a healthy and balanced lifestyle
- Build your faith and find inner strength
- Read more and expand your knowledge
- Stay strong in the face of adversity
- Work hard with purpose and passion
- Network effectively to build meaningful relationships
- Worry less and focus on what matters
- Love always and make a positive impact
In each episode, we'll dive into relevant leadership topics, share inspiring stories, and provide actionable steps you can take to elevate your life. Whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey, The Uncommon Leadership Podcast offers valuable insights and practical guidance to help you achieve your goals and live your best life.
The Uncommon Leader Podcast
Embracing Candor: Transformative Leadership and Honest Conversations with Todd Holzman
What if the secret to impactful leadership and thriving relationships lies in embracing honesty, even when it's uncomfortable? On the Uncommon Leader Podcast, we sit down with Todd Holzman, CEO and founder of Holzman Leadership, who shares a deeply personal story from his childhood that shaped his unwavering commitment to truthfulness—a lesson passed down by his father. As we explore Todd's upcoming book, "The Power of Candor," he provides insightful strategies for navigating the "honesty dilemma," where truthfulness and relationship preservation often collide.
This episode unpacks the real cost of sidestepping honest conversations, both in personal and professional spheres. Drawing from pivotal moments, including a significant leadership lesson from 1998 and a consultancy experience with Red Bull, we underscore the transformative power of candid dialogue. Todd's stories illuminate how confronting the fear of negative outcomes can lead to enhanced performance, conflict resolution, and averting unnecessary chaos in any arena, whether at home or in the workplace.
Diving into the intricacies of communication, we highlight the teachings of social scientist Chris Argyris and dissect the "candor gap" prevalent in healthcare and sales industries. Our conversation touches on emotional intelligence and the SIPA framework for difficult discussions, reinforcing the importance of introspection and self-awareness. Todd also reveals his motivations behind creating an app to democratize high-quality communication training, aiming to equip leaders and individuals with the tools to handle real-world conversations effectively and authentically. Join us as we challenge the norms of communication, advocating for a more honest and meaningful exchange in every interaction.
Thanks for listening in to the Uncommon Leader Podcast. Please take just a minute to share this podcast with that someone you know that you thought of when you heard this episode. One of the most valuable things you can do is to rate the podcast and leave a review. You can do that on Apple podcasts, or rate the podcast on Spotify or any other platform you listen.
Did you know that many of the things that I discuss on the Uncommon Leader Podcast are subjects that I coach other leaders and organizations ? If you would be interested in having me discuss 1:1 or group coaching with you, or know someone who is looking to move from Underperforming to Uncommon in their business or life, I would love to chat with you. Click this link to set up a FREE CALL to discuss how coaching might benefit you and your team)
Until next time, Go and Grow Champions!!
Connect with me
I'm trying to encourage people, inspire people to get to Cangar as well and helping them make a choice about whether they want to amplify that in their lives through a rigorous investigation of how they're doing now, what the unintended consequences are of that and the untapped opportunities and what could be possible for them at work and lives for their people, their teams, their families, all of it.
Speaker 2:This is the Uncommon Leader Podcast. I'm your host, john Gallagher, and I am excited about our guest today. Once we get into this conversation and you leave today, you're going to have many tips that are going to help you communicate better with your team, with your family, with your friends, and make a lot of those things happen. So I'm excited about that. I have Todd Holtzman with me, who has dedicated his career to helping individuals and organizations improve their communication and relationships. He's the CEO and founder of Holtzman Leadership, and his upcoming book, the Power of Candor, is set to revolutionize how we approach difficult conversations. So, todd, I hope that was getting you teed up as well as I could and getting our conversation started. How are you doing today?
Speaker 1:I am great. I'm great, Sean. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Well, I won't give you any break. Getting started, I'll give you the same question I always ask my first-time guests on the Uncommon Leader podcast. That's really to ask you to tell me a story from your childhood that still impacts who you are today, as a person or as a leader. Now we talked a little bit before the show about our age. You've got to go back a little ways here. I'm going to test your memory, but we won't reveal that completely what we are. Let's just say we're mature.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what we are, but let's just say we're, we're mature, yeah. So let's see, it's probably circa 1975, 76, and my dad had brought home sony trinitron color 19 I mean, that was the big time for TVs back then and you know, it was kind of like this prized possession of the family my father was at work and my mom was in the kitchen doing whatever, and I saw this nail file and I looked at the screen and I looked at the nail file.
Speaker 1:For some reason I thought nail file and screen, why not? So I scraped it. And then I was just curious, you know, and apparently very stupid, and I saw it scraped the screen. I was like, oh, I threw the nail file like a smoking gun away, ran to my room and just started playing, know uh, to soothe myself.
Speaker 1:And then, you know, father comes home later, I mean many hours later, and comes to my room and would ask me so you know how's? How's your day been? Oh, pretty good, uh, anything interesting happen? No, not nothing, nothing I could think of. He goes, are you sure?
Speaker 1:And I start thinking I do that like something's up, I don't know what it is. And then he goes and it's not, it's close to christmas and he says santa doesn't like little boys that lie. And then I'm like like I have the flashback. Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I saw the nail file, I saw the screen, I hit it, I didn't mean to do it and I'm just crying, crying, crying, crying. And you know, and he consoled me and he said it's not what you did. And he said it's not what you did. It's that the important thing is for you to be honest about what you did. And that was kind of a very early childhood memory about the importance of honesty and he really drilled that into me. You know, say what you think, stand up for yourself. Uh, don't lie, tell the truth.
Speaker 1:The problem is is that it was you know he was fine when I was doing that with other people, but when I was doing it with him, you know we didn't see things the same way, didn't go so well, and my mom would often she was, was more kind of emotionally reactive, would kind of react in a bad way. So I often felt, you know, if I wasn't honest I'd feel bad right, because my dad had kind of inculcated this into me.
Speaker 2:But then if?
Speaker 1:I wasn't, things would go badly. And I hadn't put like a term to it until probably 20 years later, which I called the honesty dilemma, and that has informed my life and my work ever since, because I think a lot of people feel that way every day. We all know, I mean, no parent would ever tell their kid, listen, the way to get ahead is try to like screw up the world and lie as much as you possibly can. Most parents, either explicitly or or implicitly, are trying to teach their kids like try to do some good in the world, and and and and and tell the truth.
Speaker 1:Um, but we all feel binds about that leaders, managers, salespeople because if we make the truth the thing that we prioritize, it's going to damage relationships. But then if we're too concerned about damaging relationships, then often the truth conversations are where candor goes to die, and so, yeah, that's the early childhood story. And so so, yeah, that's the early childhood story. And since then, um, since I was, since 1994, I've dedicated my life to helping people uh, solve this dilemma and god, I love the connection, love the connection.
Speaker 2:That story, yeah, I remember again, I told you before we got an episode. I got you know like like four listeners total. Three of them them are my mother, mother-in-law and wife that listen to the show all the time. But I think about that and I listen back or have these videos back as a kid, as I'm growing up as well, and I remember mom just saying you know of all the things, just don't lie to me, tell me the truth and keep it out there.
Speaker 1:So I can understand, but then again you'll probably hear if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it.
Speaker 2:So and you'll probably hear if you have nothing nice to say what Phil completely said Don't say anything and choose to say nothing. So notice the next message. There's the dilemma. Right, that's the dilemma. Tell me more about that honesty dilemma, because it is a barrier, right, for us in improved communication. The other side is, what I heard as well is that sometimes the truth hurts and maybe there's overlap with those two things. But you mentioned the honesty dilemma overlap with those two things.
Speaker 1:But you mentioned the honesty dilemma. Yeah, I mean, you know, I was on a it's on a podcast yesterday actually, where someone asked me uh, kind of a similar question, but not not so fine-tuned as that one, and I mean, so I think I explained it. It's like if you're not honest, bad things happen. If you are honest you're not honest, bad things happen. And if you are honest, you're afraid bad things are going to happen, right? And the question the guy asked me yesterday was do you think that people avoid having, say, honest conversations because of the risks, right, that they think are embedded in having those conversations and the bad things that could result from them? And I said yes in part.
Speaker 1:But what people aren't really aware of of all the bad things that are already happening because they're avoiding the truth of things in these conversations? Their relationships are already suboptimized, their results are already suboptimized, they're already holding on to something which is bothering them and so they're feeling frustrated and disappointed and demotivated and all of these kinds of things. And that's a big reason why people avoid having honest conversations, because if they were aware of all the problems the avoidance of honesty was creating or that we're creating. English is my first language, but sometimes grammar escapes me. They would be less likely to, much less likely to avoid them. And then of course there's, you know, the competence to ensure those conversations go well.
Speaker 2:We got a mentor that has said this to me before and it's one I've read from. I've not met him before in person, but it's from reading his stuff. He said the most expensive time is the time between when you know you need to have that conversation and when you actually carry that conversation out in an effective way. Conversation and when you actually carry that conversation out in an effective way and then all that time in between. There there is such an emotional barrier that exists inside of that. But also if it's a piece of feedback that you need somebody to improve and you're just afraid to tell them, you're losing all that productivity, you're losing all that profitability, whatever. It is in effectiveness that you're losing as well. But that becomes the most expensive time. I remember I had one of the most profound-.
Speaker 1:Who said that? By the way, that's brilliant.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a John Maxwell quote that I read inside of his book, and I can't remember which one it was, because, unfortunately, that entire road is out there, but it is.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's so true, right, I had a conversation, and I say this I had an employee when I first got into leadership back in 1998 that I wanted to have a tough conversation with and I just didn't know how to have it.
Speaker 2:I finally learned a framework to have that conversation after going to a week-long leadership event. If this is all that I got out of that event, it was powerful. I was ready to terminate this individual because he couldn't get along with other people. His behaviors were bad and I couldn't figure out a way to tell him. I just wanted to be nice because I didn't want the guy to be mad at me. He was the same age as me, we came from the same class and all those things. But I ended up being able, with a framework, to have that tough conversation with him and he literally said he said that has got to be the best feedback I've ever gotten. That's 1998. That individual is still with that same company now as an executive director for the organization and I was getting ready to push him out the door.
Speaker 1:So I remember, um, I've got a few things I want to say. Sometimes you just got to pick one, john, you know well, I mean good for you, um, you know, allowing the truth to be your ally and having some faith that the best that could possibly happen will be as a result of prioritizing the truth, and good for you for having faith in this person as well, that they could hear it. We often give each other way too little credit and we attribute too much weakness to each other than is actually warranted as a general rule. But what it reminds me of and when I can mention clients rule. But what it reminds me of, and when I can mention clients I can. When I can't, I can't. We're working at my team and I were working at Red Bull years ago consulting them. We're in this beautiful ski lodge in Park City, utah, called Stein Erickson's and we ran these things called bull shops. We had to brand it properly for what they were doing, we'd have like three and a half days in the mountains.
Speaker 1:It was ridiculously luxurious and privileged to be able to even do that. And we had a bunch of the I guess it was the GMs or something around the table, running different geographies, and one of the GMs is ready, just like you, ready to get rid of this guy, and they're all agreeing with him. I was like okay, so, if I understand it, this is what you think his gap is. X, is that right? Uh-huh, and this is what your data for this is. Here's your examples. Y, that's right, and this is all the problems that his behavior is creating.
Speaker 2:Z.
Speaker 1:Yes, so have you told him all this? No, so you're ready to fire a guy?
Speaker 2:because he's not behaving these ways.
Speaker 1:He's behaving in this way, which I can understand right, because it is creating problems for sure, but you never actually told him the truth about these things and you're blaming him for being unchangeable and resistant to change. I mean, you actually can't make that claim unless you've actually given him the feedback. So what you're doing is listen. It may be the case that the horse has already left the barn and it's too late to recover the situation, but I think you do have to question the morality of your decision in light of this. And it's interesting, it's funny.
Speaker 1:I was angry about it. I remember it. I was a good bit younger then and this is like 15 years ago so. But they agreed and he had the conversation and the person was open to it and he turned his. He turned his behavior around, his performance improved. They didn't fire him and it's like, yeah, uh, look at how much chaos could have been avoided had they had the conversation earlier. And had they not look how coincidental at all. This guy's whole life was in the balance. And had these guys not come to utah and had that conversation not occurred, all these bad things would have happened and, of course, these guys would never have learned anything either? The leaders themselves, and this is why will I screw up your next question or can I just say a little more about this candor thing?
Speaker 1:Todd, go ahead, come on. So, okay, because I know we talked a little bit before and you spent a lot of time in healthcare and consulting to kind of healthcare entities, and we have too. We spend a lot of time with several global faculty 13 people, more than half of whom are overseas and the rest are here stateside, lucky enough to not only train leaders at very high levels, like senior levels, like CEOs of pharmas and things like this, but also customer-facing teams, salespeople, msls, patient access people all the like, and we have had a kind of privileged access to the way they actually conduct these conversations with customers. And when we develop people, we ask them bring to us a customer conversation. That didn't produce the result that you wanted and based upon the work of one of my, my idols, uh, chris argers from harvard. So chris taught at the business school, the law school, the graduate school of education, where I studied, the kennedy school of government, where I taught. For those of you who are interested in him, imagine, uh, imagine, I was going to say the Einstein of the social sciences, a-r-g-y-r-i-s. Chris wrote a bunch of stuff in the Harvard Business Review. I don't know. He wrote I don't know a few hundred articles, 30 books, received 14 honorary doctorates for his massive contributions to management, leadership, organizational behavior, research, education, anthropology. I mean amazing human being and he developed a foolproof tool that we use that helps you. It's the best. Next thing to like micing people up or filming them when they're actually having real conversation. So the point of me telling you this is we get very accurate data on how they're really behaving during these critical conversations with customers.
Speaker 1:Fine, the reason I'm explaining all this is that in every single instance the culprit was a candor gap that they were either not expressing important things they were thinking and feeling to the customer and or asking the kind of questions that were necessary so that the customer would open up and share the truth of what they were thinking with them. That's number one, and number two, by the way, largely unaware that that was the reason why the conversations weren't having the impact that they wanted. I'm not saying completely unaware, just for the most part unaware. They would mostly say the explanation was largely external they're not giving me the time I need, they're very busy. They prefer the other therapy, insert explanation. I wouldn't call them excuses. I think those things are also true.
Speaker 1:But here's what the consequences are, and this is why I have I was just writing a post on this today have made Canada the cause of my life is because the human toll is huge and the level of human suffering is incredibly underappreciated. So we'll talk about three levels of suffering For the customer, for the salespeople, in this case, themselves, and for the patient. So the customer maybe this is a healthcare, you know, hcp or somebody like this feels like the conversation has been a waste of their time and they're not getting any value out of it. Because if you're not saying anything valuable, you know. If it's provocative, why would it be interesting and useful to them? Fine, and so, of course, then if you're a sales rep, your access to them goes down, because they don't spend time on things they don't consider valuable.
Speaker 1:As a sales rep, you're miserable, right, at least with some set of customers. You're feeling very frustrated, you're disappointed, you're demotivated, you're deflated, all of it. And getting up out of bed day in, day out, man, talking to these customers when they want to give you a few minutes, I mean I couldn't do it. But then you start to think about the patients. Well, the consequences of this is that in these instances, the patient ain't getting the medicine they need. Oh, that's right, all right, and some of these patients you know. The best case scenario is there's an opportunity to improve a patient's life, a life and it's being squandered or delayed. The middle case is they're suffering from some horrible disease. They eventually get the medicine, but they suffer longer than necessary.
Speaker 2:The worst case scenario is they actually die and when we've had back to that time gap, by the way, too back to that time, how long it takes to get the information they need yep it's you're saying that partially triggered for me to say this.
Speaker 1:And so and by the way, this is not my analysis, it is our analysis, but it's their analysis so we take them through a process of taking a hard look at their case studies. We ask them so what is it that you did or didn't do that's preventing you from making progress? After we help them understand what good looks like so they could better analyze themselves, and they end up being pretty insightful and they say what are the unintended negative consequences on customers, you and patients?
Speaker 1:What I'm telling you is what they said, and so you know how this work can be, john is, you have a sense of mission about it, but you keep getting re-enrolled in it, because your clients teach you things that make the difficult work of helping people get better at this worthwhile.
Speaker 2:Well, Todd, look, I mean, I love the passion that you have for making that happen In the world of healthcare it exists Again in that consulting space that I've been in as well. How many times, frankly, a physician and I'm not taking shots of physicians they got a tough job. But in a three-minute conversation they have with a patient, how much time do they have to use candor with a patient that say, if you don't change your behavior, you are going to die at some point in time, because we're all going to die? But they don't want to have those conversations, they don't want the patient to be upset with them, and I make up that that's one of the biggest barriers to candor is the desire, whether it's a leader, as a family member, as a physician, whatever that is to be liked, and we don't want someone to be upset with us. And so I have two questions.
Speaker 2:The candor piece of it. Let's even go down to the basics of that. How do you define candor in communication? And then the second piece of that is what attributes are needed to be effective in that delivery, Because I make up. I could also communicate with candor, but do it by yelling at someone or whatever that is. So how do you define it? And then, what are the attributes needed to be effective at it?
Speaker 1:Okay, let me address the first question. If I lose the thread in the second question, just please bring it back so maybe I could say what it isn't first. So it isn't about saying everything you think and feel. My partner, olga, who has a reality show sitcom that's on now on Apple TV Okay, shameless plug called Olga Knows Best and unfortunately I'm in it because it's about her life, so I have no choice. She would love that. Right. Let me teach all of our clients to just be fully self-expressed, say whatever you think and feel. Great for a reality show man, but not great for real life.
Speaker 1:And actually a managing director of talent at one of our FTSE 100 banking clients told us that we tried something like that. We instituted a value years ago, before we ever came along, called something like straight talk or whatever it was, or direct conversations, and she said it gave license to every sociopath to say what they thought and felt, regardless of how unkind it was. So what we like to say and I like to say what they thought and felt, regardless of how unkind it was. So what we like to say and I like to say, like candor without compassion can be cruel, it's equally okay. It's equally not about only you saying what you think and feel, because none of us as individuals are omniscient, and so a piece of truth, hopefully, or some aspect of reality exists in my head. But we've all got pieces of the puzzle and we have to combine these puzzle pieces to form a more complete picture of what's actually true. And I was talking to the definition I'm going to give you. I have shamelessly stolen it, but it came from one of our clients.
Speaker 1:So Ed Jenkins I Ed British guy. I think he still lives in the UK. I think he might be working for AstraZeneca now, I'm not sure, but he was working for a different farmer when we worked together. I think he might be working for AstraZeneca now, I'm not sure, but he was working for a different farmer when we worked together and we had gone through this. He had gone through this program. He was the franchise head for important therapy for the United Kingdom and I think up reporting into him. He had kind of commercial leaders and salespeople and he had medical leaders and salespeople.
Speaker 1:So he and all these different levels went through our kind of candor program and it delivered a great result. You know, despite the company going through a big reorg, despite them losing their with the FDA. They didn't get the approval for the earlier line of therapy. People kept using what they learned and they grew orders which was amazing and I didn't think would happen because you're in the middle of reorg and then you don't get approved for earlier therapy and then your competitor does, and all the HTPs are looking at the competitor's drug and say why are you going to buy anything from you, okay? So I asked Ed amongst others can you help me understand why the program delivered? And it seemed like it delivered a result. Well, first of all, do you think it did, Okay? And if so, what actually happened? I mean, I have some sense of why it happens, but we're not there watching people what they're doing with it. They're not inside of people's heads, so I don't know 100% what they're actually doing.
Speaker 1:And this is the definition of candor. That now is kind of our North star as a firm. And he said I always thought of these conversations that either something to win or to avoid. Because now I understand that candor is treating every conversation as a collaborative search for the truth in order to make things better. And I have to say, john, that really hit me two years ago, I guess maybe two and a half and it's like wow, somebody finally explained to me what the heck I've been doing and I was very grateful for it. And so that's how we think of it, and I think this is why this is a mind shift for people.
Speaker 1:Um, because in some ways the conversations seem tougher for people because of how they're thinking about the conversation, like, oh, I've got to convince them they're wrong and I'm right. But if you think a bit, as this conversation is meant to do some good in the world, maybe it's also a way I'm trying to serve this person as well. So you're trying to serve something outside of yourself this person, the team, the impact this team has on important things and people then it kind of shifts your orientation. So then, and then if you start to think of. Okay, I'm trying to do some good through the conversation, but I have to treat it as a collaborative search for the truth and I have to have kind of courageous humility. This is maybe this is a variable, one of the variables you were talking about or aspects of it.
Speaker 1:It's like, okay, I have the courage to express the truth of what I think, but I have to have the humility to be open to and to even invite people to tell me where I'm wrong, because what I care about is not being right. I care care about what's true. So then a lot of you who are listening and thinking about having tough conversations it doesn't mean it makes the conversation easy, by no means. You are right to be worried about these things. It's not in your head. You don't need some psychotropics to help you deal with your anxiety.
Speaker 1:Most of the time your limbic system is telling you something, probably for most often for some good reasons. But if you think of it, if you kind of orient yourself that way the truth on behalf of service then I think it totally affects the way you approach it. Then you can say to somebody listen, I'm worried, some of the things that you're doing are kind of damaging your credibility with the team, which I know is important to you and may impact your ability to kind of, you know, get the kind of bonus. You're looking at the end of the year and I've been thinking about that and I got some things to share with you. That, I think, could be helpful. You interested in talking about it? I don't see why that. It's not that that conversation won't be upsetting, but it doesn't mean the person will be upset with you. They'll be upset with the reality of the situation.
Speaker 2:Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share something special with you. Many of the topics and discussions we have on this podcast are areas where I provide coaching and consulting services for individuals and organizations. If you've been inspired by our conversation and are seeking a catalyst for change in your own life or within your team, I invite you to visit coachjohngallaghercom forward slash free call to sign up for a free coaching call with me. It's an opportunity for us to connect, discuss your unique challenges and explore how coaching or consulting can benefit you and your team. Okay, let's get back to the show. That's awesome. So I love that. I mean what I'm hearing you saying.
Speaker 2:The attributes that need to be there courage and humility are the kind of entry If you get into the conversation. You've got to have both those things ultimately overcoming. What Mark Twain would say is that we can make up a lot of bad things that are about to happen 90% of them which will never occur in terms of the quote that he has, but there still may be a bad response to it, but the piece that comes after that is even that specific behavioral observation that goes along with it. So I have courage, I have humility, but I better have specifics to be able to communicate with the individual. Back to your point not to be right, not to be right necessarily, but so that they can take an action from it and do something different.
Speaker 1:Well, let's use your framework, right? You were telling me a little bit about this before. What was the framework? You?
Speaker 2:had situation, behavior, impact and action. What do I need you to do? Going forward Yep.
Speaker 1:All right. So let's take the first three, because if you dump the, the A is certainly important in that framework If you introduce the A too soon, then what happens to the leaders? This is one of the big traps that we see in the data set of like 50,000 conversations that we've studied People jump to action too quickly before they have agreement on the problem. So you're trying to get agreement on the SIP right for situation, impact and behavioral examples. Is that right? Did I get that right? Okay, fine, so I think that's a wonderful framework.
Speaker 1:You can see in that example that I was giving, all I did was put a frame around it. That's right. Right, it's like I'm expressing my intent of sharing all this stuff with you, and this is sometimes when converse without the frame, if you throw it. I'm not saying this is always true, but sometimes it'll be true If you go. I got some feedback for you. Here's the situation, you know, here's the impact, here's the behavioral examples. Great, if you don't put the frame around it. I want to talk to you about something. Yes, right.
Speaker 1:You know that I think is, and sometimes you can name the impact that is having potentially this impact on you and things that you and we care about, then they could easily attribute to you're just trying to give them a hard time, right, you know? And when you're receiving and oftentimes when we're talking to each other no-transcript emotional to some degree, they're going to be provocative, they might be upsetting, because if we're talking, if we disagree with each other, well, that's what we can do over a beer, right. But if I'm talking about something important, that probably I'm not sure if this is right, but let me say it out loud and see what you think. I'm probably talking to you because I don't think you're either taking action on something properly or I don't think you're aware of something that you need to be aware of.
Speaker 1:Or I don't think. Maybe you are aware of it, but you aren't taking it seriously enough.
Speaker 2:I think you're spot on. I often refer to some of those conversations. If you're not getting a little blood on the carpet, it's probably not really worth the conversation. And to your point that happens I mean fights happen at your point Drinking it. Right, you throw a beer mug at the other person, kind of thing that's proverbial.
Speaker 1:So I'm fine for conversations where we're shooting the shit, that's fun, right, or we're in the UK, just recreational. But if I'm talking to you about something that matters to me, it means, by definition, I don't think it's mattering enough to you. I don't think it's mattering enough to you, I don't think you're dealing with it properly or even think you're seeing it. So embedded in these important conversations is going to be conflict, you know, by definition. Now, because of that, because the conversation will almost always generate some discomfort for people.
Speaker 1:When people feel uncomfortable, they're more likely to make negative attributions about your motives and about what your intent of having the conversation is. So if you do some good framing, it kind of cleans that up, provided they believe you. But also this is what Chris Voss talks about from the Black Swan Group it gives people a moment to kind of brace themselves and get ready for it so they don't get hijacked by their limbic systems. So this is why I make it and it's not the only thing we talk about, certainly not but why I make a big point around framing before you dive into the kind of sedo model, you know it's so funny it was excellent, by the way, you and I and I love the, the context you've shared in terms of the action coming in too early.
Speaker 2:So I had a conversation just a couple days ago with a coaching client uh, who's gonna have a tough conversation. I said how you gonna start this conversation. Take me through how you're going to start it. So I'm going to ask as soon as I walk in, I'm going to ask him are they in or not? I'm like stop, that's the action portion of this. Let's get to this to your point. Let's put a frame around this conversation before you bring them to are you in or not, kind of thing, because that's the action you want. You want some different behavior. You go in that aggressive and you are going to have a fight on your hands because they're going to go, you know, into defense mode. Uh, all all these things are going to happen. Whatever's coming out is an attack on me that's right in my wording.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. I mean, you know, uh, you know, you gotta, you gotta earn the right to say that, yes, exactly right. These conversations. There is a temperature at which the ingredients need to be baked before they cohere, and we were talking a little bit before, and if you don't want to talk about this, fine. Is this the example where this?
Speaker 2:person's worried about them blowing up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so let's look at that. For a second right, the person's concerned that the person they're going to get this feedback to is going to blow up. So then they do something which ensures they will blow up. Yep, so what's really interesting is, you know why is that? Because I would bet that at some level, he knows better. The reason I say that is I'll make two bets with you, one which we will not be able to validate, one. If somebody else were going to do the same thing and came to him for coaching or her, he'd probably say don't do that.
Speaker 1:so it means he has a rules in his head that says doing that is a violation of some rule, right, like, don't jump to action before we actually discuss the problem rule, and most people have that in their head. But I also my other bet which we could validate is I bet you would have told him that he probably got it pretty quickly is that true?
Speaker 2:oh, I think so absolutely. I mean again, if we go back through that conversation, he's gonna say that makes sense, right, I shouldn't do it so?
Speaker 1:so what? What is that quick? It means he a priority. Before he ever heard from you, had a rule in his head that said not to do something like that. So then the question becomes so if all that's true, then why does he violate his own rule?
Speaker 1:And because the reason I'm bringing this up is because what we have found, so this guy, chris Argyris, upon whose extraordinary research not everything, but much of what we do is based. So what Chris I'll give a very layman's explanation of it discovered is that we've got our principles and we've got our programming, and the two are often in contradiction to each other, contradiction to each other. So people believe in I should have the courage to express what I say, what I think. I should be deeply curious about what other people think. I should also see these conversations as collaborations, where we're trying to make sense out of reality together and, on that basis, trying to figure out what to do about it Right. So we see, believe these things.
Speaker 1:What chris discovered when he first did this research in the 70s with 15, 15 000 people we've now, we've now since worked with all 50 000 um is that when people have any kind of concern about that, there's going to be a conflict, that the conversation might be upsetting, that it might be threatening and or embarrassing anything like this, that these principles get short-circuited and get replaced with programming that drives people to keep things too comfortable, that makes them want to win and not make things too competitive, win and not lose the conversation and be super controlling in the conversation. And a clinical psychologist I'm fond of, a guy named Jordan Peterson, which I'm sure a lot of listeners have heard of says that our principles are stored in a different part of our brain than is our programming.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, okay, so we can read these great books, watch YouTube videos, even listen to us talk, and that will hopefully improve the warehouse of information in our brains that stores our principles. But the programming, when we feel that the conversation may be threatening and or embarrassing for myself and or other people, gets activated and blocks it. And this is why the leadership development industry at least I would assert it's a $60 billion industry worldwide. Research has been done on whether it changes leadership behavior. Research has been done on whether it changes leadership behavior. Not so much. It's because it's not because we're teaching people the wrong things or we're trying to develop them the wrong things.
Speaker 1:There may be problems there too, and I think there are, but let's assume everything we taught them was perfect and if only they could apply it they would be better leaders. The problem is the application, because the overprotective program is what we've coined. It blocks people from doing this. Sure, you have to help people become aware of. So why is it? They violate their own principles and in your guy's case, so let's assume he has the rule not to do that. Why does he do it Nevertheless. What do you think?
Speaker 2:I think it's comfort. I'm moving, moving back into a space of comfort. If someone distracts or moves you off of your point, uh, you're going to have a tendency to go back to your natural uh programming that's his comfort.
Speaker 1:But he but he. What he's doing is a much more. I gotta know right now you in or out? No, no, effing about right. So that's his comfort zone. But it sounds to me like he's trying to exert a lot of control over the conversation because his theory is I'm worried about this person blowing up. So if I can kind of establish some dominance, and exert some fear out then. Then I can contain the upset.
Speaker 2:You might be right, todd, absolutely. I don't want to rule that out either. To your point, by the way, these things often team up.
Speaker 1:It's like a hybrid of comfort and control.
Speaker 2:You used the term emotional. I mean, that's one of the things that I really get with them as well. It's like, how do you convey emotion without being emotional? Uh, it's very important. How do you show them you're passionate, that you care so much, without flying off the handle?
Speaker 2:And I, you know, I often encourage them to uh role play those, those conversations with others as well, before you go in, just and then to have them fly off the handle in the role-playing and see how you handle it, so you can be ready for it, just in case it happens. I'll never forget there's a training. Probably 20 years ago, when I was actually on the other side in manufacturing, we were training some of our leaders, uh, utilizing this uh uh framework that I've talked about, and one of the role players absolutely came unhinged in the role-playing conversation against one of the top leaders that we had in the organization and I mean the whole class was, like you know, totally taken aback just in terms of how he went after that and he was a big guy anyway, like Brutus from from Popeye it was so funny.
Speaker 2:And it was to me. I didn't know he was going to do it, so I even I was a little bit uncomfortable, uh, when he went there. But then I started to laugh and realizing that we were just role playing.
Speaker 1:But I gotta tell you when you can, when you can predict, uh and overcome some of those things beforehand, that can be pretty powerful and I will say, I will say you like, thank goodness, this guy we're talking about has you, you know, because I mean you guided him in the right direction and now he's going to be in a much better position to have the kind of conversations that he needs to have. That will be, you know, of service to this person and the company that he works for. So keep going. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:I look forward to hearing about it. It was actually a conversation that was supposed to happen today as we record this. Okay, I'm going to be following up with him just with a phone call or a text message to say how to go.
Speaker 1:Say a little prayer yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:Well, that was the other side of it, as I told him. By the way, regardless of where you sit on, I'm going to put it on my calendar to the time you're going to meet with them and I am going to say a little prayer, and I would encourage you to do the same thing before you go in, to give you the courage and the humility you need. Um, you know, holy spirit, fill you up with the courage and humility you need to have. This conversation needs to be had, absolutely, todd. You got your book coming up. The power of candor, and I know publishers well enough they may try and change the name on you. That's fine. Give me a sneak peek. Who are you writing this book for?
Speaker 1:And what do you want folks to take away from it? So thank you for asking. I guess this is time for a shameless plug.
Speaker 1:You know the alternative title could be, you know, since we're getting a little biblical here, the truth shall set you free, and that conviction is embedded, certainly, into our work and my firm. We have people who are all over the map in terms of their religious affiliations or the lack thereof, but this underlying principle is something that we all believe, and the reason I'm writing the book is two reasons. Well, let me say, the larger objective of the book is to provide people with knowledge they can use in real life to improve their important conversations in and outside of work, so that they, so that we can reduce human suffering and increase human joy and meaning. So so that's, that's what's driving it. Um, then the question is I would, I would ask, and I've asked myself this question why another book on conversations? Haven't we had enough?
Speaker 1:I mean, there's so many of them, um, and I think the reason is twofold. Um, reason is twofold. Um, there's not. I don't know how to express this exactly. I let me say it this way I think there is a knowledge gap as to what good looks like when it comes to having these important conversations in our lives, and so I mean to close that through the book by sharing the results of our work and research over 30 years, with easily 50,000 people at this point, um, because the field, um, there's some good ideas in these books. There are some gaps in the research and there are some downright bad ideas that are passed off as good practice, and so, to the degree that I can in the context of this book, I want to provide people with quality information about how to have good conversations.
Speaker 2:Secondly, love that premise no doubt about in terms of providing good data on how it works Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Nobody's geeked out more about on subject than we have in terms of the research. There are other people who have done great research on other topics, but we have, and I have been obsessed with only one thing, and this has been the one thing for now 30 years, so I better have something good to say, otherwise I've been wasting three decades. The second thing is, I don't want people to be naive about the challenge, let me say. The other thing is I'm trying to encourage people, inspire people to get to candor as well, to amplify that in their lives through a rigorous investigation of how they're doing now, what the unintended consequences are of that and the untapped opportunities and what could be possible for them at work and their lives, for their people, their teams, their families, all of it, if they could turn the volume up on candor in the way we defined it, right Collaborative search in order to make things better. But I also want to do something within the confines of the book that actually can make people better at this, so they don't have to spend, you know, or spend less money on expensive training, you know. But what I want to do with that, though, is parlay it into, or I'd rather connect it to the app, because we are in the development of an app, because the problem is, is that what? People who get access to my firm or Kim Scott's firm, whoever, it is right. What is it? Top 1% of the world, maybe? Right, it is right. What is it? Top 1% of the world? Right? I mean what? Those are the only people who need to have, who struggle with conversations and need to be better at it. So, but the thing is, it's like it's way too expensive and it's not doable. So, because I've been studying this phenomenon enough, we have a pretty good sense of what the algorithms are that underpin effective practice and also what the current algorithms are that are making people less effective these conversations, and we figured out how to disrupt, short circuit the current algorithm and replace it with a more effective algorithm. This is the benefit of not having written anything yet and just being in the lab and developing people for about 30 years.
Speaker 1:So the idea is bring any conversation you want to have with anyone about anything important, anytime. She's here for you and she will not only help you strategize for what to talk about and how to talk about it, but this is the kicker the quality of the practice that you will get. She will simulate the conversation you're going to have with the person. She will both play the person you're going to be and then she will give you, in the moment, feedback about how you're conducting it. If you're falling into a trap, she'll be like John, you're jumping to action.
Speaker 1:You're like what do you mean? I'm like you're actually offering solutions to a problem that you haven't even discussed yet and that haven't been actually been agreed. Do you see that? You're like, yeah, okay, so name the problem, okay, and then she'll guide you through that so that you can start disrupting the old pattern and start etching and rewiring a new pattern. And then the more you do it, it doesn't matter what. It could be feedback to your team. It could be trying to influence up. It could be leading across boundaries with people who don't have authority. It could be a conversation with a customer. It could be conversations at home, whatever outside of work, which are vast. You know, practice, practice, practice and you just become tons better. But it also is very practical. Application of it's going to help you solve a problem that you have right now.
Speaker 2:I think it's such a great application for what we need in leadership today utilizing AI, utilizing the app to help us have those conversations. I know I've benefited from it myself in terms of having those conversations prior to that and looking like.
Speaker 1:More people need access to John right, yes, absolutely. But you can't do it. You're limited because you're one human being, but if you can take You're spot on.
Speaker 2:I love the scale activity. I believe the word that I read the democratization of the tool, if you will. So the book will come a long way, but the actual app itself and making that available is going to be something powerful. I have loved our conversation. I think we should get back online once you get your book coming out as well, on the app gets tightened up and talk even more about this topic, because I know I could talk about it for hours, but I also want to honor your time and my time as well. And, todd, how can folks get in touch with you to learn more about candor, to learn more about you and be ready for when your book's coming out?
Speaker 1:Sure, and also if they want some free resources as well. So people can contact me directly, todd T-O-double-D at holzmancom, so H-O-L-Z-M-A-Ncom. I have a PA. Her name is Lace L-A-C-E same email address. They should also hook up with us on LinkedIn, because my faculty and I are posting on a daily basis, so we're trying to provide valuable content, and then we're also I mean there's like I don't know hundreds of stuff on our blog video and written. So just go to holzmanleadershipcom or holzmancom and it takes you to the same place and right-hand side of the screen. Click and you'll see all kinds of stuff that you can learn from right now.
Speaker 2:Excellent, I'll be sure to put the links in the show notes as well, so folks can get to those easily. They can hear them. They'll show up in the YouTube comments as well. Todd, I'll finish you up with the same question. I'll give you a billboard and you can put it anywhere you want to right behind you, somewhere there in New York city, behind your shoulder or wherever you want to put it. You can put any message you want to on that billboard. What's the message that you put on there and why do you put that message on there? Tell the truth, do good. I think that's a pretty good message. Tells a lot about what we're talking about with candor, you know again.
Speaker 2:You mentioned, too, the ability to do this outside of work. Like I can't wait to go and use some of this stuff as I walk out the door to my office having conversations with my son and others to help me go forward. So I have really enjoyed our conversation. I appreciate you investing the time with the leaders of the Uncommon Leader Podcast. Wish you the best in your work in your book and all the things you're doing to try and make an impact in this area. Thanks, tom, my pleasure. You're welcome, thank you, and that wraps up another episode of the Uncommon Leader Podcast. Thanks for tuning in today. If you found value in this episode, I encourage you to share it with your friends, colleagues or anyone else who could benefit from the insights and inspiration we've shared. Also, if you have a moment, I'd greatly appreciate if you could leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback not only helps us to improve, but it also helps others discover the podcast and join our growing community of uncommon leaders. Until next time, go and grow champions.
