🎯𝐂𝐨𝐦𝐟𝐨𝐫𝐭 𝐈𝐬 𝐊𝐢𝐥𝐥𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐘𝐨𝐮𝐫 𝐋𝐞𝐚𝐝𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐡𝐢𝐩: 𝐇𝐨𝐰 𝐭𝐨 𝐁𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐤 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐓𝐫𝐚𝐩 & 𝐋𝐞𝐚𝐝 𝐰𝐢𝐭𝐡 𝐁𝐫𝐚𝐯𝐞𝐫𝐲

🔥 Leaders & CEOs — are you unknowingly stuck in the Comfort Trap?

It’s the silent killer of influence, innovation, and impact — and most high-achievers don’t even see it coming.

In this episode of 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐔𝐧𝐜𝐨𝐦𝐦𝐨𝐧 𝐋𝐞𝐚𝐝𝐞𝐫 𝐏𝐨𝐝𝐜𝐚𝐬𝐭, I sit down with former U.S. Marine Corps officer, leadership coach, and author 𝐉𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐒𝐜𝐡𝐮𝐥𝐦𝐚𝐧 to reveal how to break free from the habits holding you back and build the bravery muscle every leader needs.

💡 Inside, you’ll discover: https://youtu.be/m5uvbQ4ksVs

✅ How to spot the difference between healthy fear & self-imposed limits

✅ Why “pushing the easy button” weakens your leadership over time

✅ The simple, science-backed shift — the Power of YET — that rewires your mindset

✅ Why discomfort is the REAL catalyst for growth, influence, and results

✅ How to surround yourself with a BRAVE TRIBE that fuels your courage daily

This isn’t just motivation — it’s a battle-tested blueprint for fearless leadership, grounded in psychology, real-world grit, and executive coaching strategies you can apply today. https://youtu.be/m5uvbQ4ksVs

🎯 𝐂𝐨𝐧𝐧𝐞𝐜𝐭 𝐰𝐢𝐭𝐡 𝐉𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐒𝐜𝐡𝐮𝐥𝐦𝐚𝐧:

🔗 LinkedIn → https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillaschulman/?original_referer=

🌐 Website & Free Bravery Assessment → https://www.jillschulman.com/

🚀 𝐋𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐥 𝐮𝐩 𝐲𝐨𝐮𝐫 𝐥𝐞𝐚𝐝𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐡𝐢𝐩 𝐰𝐢𝐭𝐡 𝐉𝐨𝐡𝐧 𝐆𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐚𝐠𝐡𝐞𝐫:

🎯 𝐅𝐫𝐞𝐞 𝟏:𝟏 𝐒𝐭𝐫𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐠𝐲 𝐂𝐚𝐥𝐥 → https://coachjohngallagher.com/freecall

🌐 More Resources → https://linktr.ee/coachjohngallagher

🌐 Visit → https://youtu.be/m5uvbQ4ksVs

#Leadership #ExecutiveCoaching #GrowthMindset #WarriorMindset #LeadershipDevelopment #CEOLeadership #LeadershipCoach #MindsetMatters #ComfortTrap #LevelUpLeadership #TheUncommonLeaderPodcast #CoachJohnGallagher #JillSchulman "

Thanks for listening in to the Uncommon Leader Podcast. Please take just a minute to share this podcast with that someone you know that you thought of when you heard this episode. One of the most valuable things you can do is to rate the podcast and leave a review. You can do that on Apple podcasts, or rate the podcast on Spotify or any other platform you listen.

Did you know that many of the things that I discuss on the Uncommon Leader Podcast are subjects that I coach other leaders and organizations ? If you would be interested in having me discuss 1:1 or group coaching with you, or know someone who is looking to move from Underperforming to Uncommon in their business or life, I would love to chat with you. Click this link to set up a FREE CALL to discuss how coaching might benefit you and your team)

Until next time, Go and Grow Champions!!

Connect with me

Chapters

• 0:00 What Bravery Really Means
• 6:30 The Comfort Trap Explained
• 13:57 A Marine's Journey to Bravery
• 21:50 The Psychology Behind Brave Actions
• 28:05 Building Your Bravery Muscle Daily
• 36:56 Comfort and Growth Cannot Coexist

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Do we choose to keep moving forward or even in change? Because so many of my clients are facing change and uncertainty and we have a choice Do we just sit there, dump out it and just not do anything, or do we move toward it? Like you know, we always have to be moving. What I really care about and why I'm so passionate the people who are struggling and don't feel like they're brave, like I'm here to help them, because you can, little by little, little, learn to be brave and when you get through that journey, there is nothing that feels better as you build your self-confidence.

Speaker 2: 0:38

Hey, Uncommon Leaders, welcome back. This is the Uncommon Leader podcast. I'm your host, John Gallagher, and have I got a fantastic, inspirational guest for you today? The conversation we're about to have is for those individuals who are feeling stuck in the work that they're in right now, maybe in a relationship that they have or, ultimately, in their own life. Realizing that their potential they know they can reach is just not happening for them, and we need a way to make that happen. Our guest today is a former US Marine Corps officer, a positive psychology expert and the founder of the Breakthrough Leadership Group, and now we're going to put author beside her name the author of the Bravery Effect. In this book, she makes a powerful case that true growth and success comes from embracing discomfort and that bravery is a skill and a muscle that we can actually build. So I can't wait to have a conversation about that. Jill Shulman, welcome to the Uncommon Leader Podcast. How are you doing today?

Speaker 1: 1:34

I am fantastic and so excited to chat with you.

Speaker 2: 1:38

Well, this is going to be great and I'm going to jump right in. No reason to wait. Your book. The core message is that bravery isn't really the absence of fear, but it's forward motion in spite of that fear. So how do individuals kind of recognize in terms of what a healthy fear is, that they don't have to do anything about, or something that's just holding them back and it's in their own mind?

Speaker 1: 2:00

Yeah, I mean just in general. Yeah, bravery is taking action in the presence of fear toward a worthwhile goal. So if we look at the definition, you know, sometimes fear is a very, very good sign that there's danger and we should move away. You know, fear is what kept us alive and Daniel Kahneman's work you know, Nobel Prize winning psychologist found that we're actually twice as motivated to avoid things that are riskier that we fear.

Speaker 1: 2:32

You're just a human being, You're normal, right, but we have to learn to differentiate between the fears we should listen to, which is like the edge of a cliff, a black bear or a saber-toothed tiger, physical danger, versus the dangers that we normally face today, which is social danger, which is usually the fear of failure, the fear of rejection. But our brain, our nervous system, doesn't know the difference, so we just react the same way. So I guess, to answer your question, we've got to know when we feel fear. We've got to decide is this something dangerous where it's not a worthwhile goal, it's actually something I should run away from? Or am I just nervous because of the social fear, but it's standing in between me and the thing that I really want? So what's that worthwhile goal? What is the thing that you really want, and if there's fear holding you back from getting to that, then when you feel that fear, I want you to look at that as a sign that there's something important. You need to move toward it. So don't run away. Move toward that type of fear.

Speaker 2: 3:57

I love that, like you said, you can distinguish the difference. When somebody says to jump out of an airplane without a parachute, you can definitely tell that type of fear is not really logical to use. But in the space of change, especially in the workplace that we work in today as leaders, some of those fears that hold us back are our own, made up stuff that really exists Now inside. What I kind of talk about with regards to change is that, you know, people ultimately change when the displeasure of remaining where they are today is greater than the pain of the change itself, and they'll make a change once they understand that they're stuck. The term that you use inside the book, which I think is really cool, is the comfort trap, and so when you think about that term, the comfort trap if you would define that for me just a little bit and then give me one or two you know things that you identify as a coach and as an expert in that space that people are in a comfort trap versus something that's really a fear.

Speaker 1: 4:51

Yeah. So just let's just let's talk about what a comfort trap is. You've been reading the book so you understand. But for your audience?

Speaker 1: 4:57

So the comfort trap is when, in the moments we have to decide to do the right thing that's uncomfortable, or to do the easy thing that is comfortable. You know, when we choose comfort, it makes it harder for us next time to do the uncomfortable thing. And I like to use the analogy of it's like building a muscle right, if you don't work out your body and your muscles atrophy and then your body gets weaker over time. So think of it the same way in terms of our bravery, like, if we continually don't go into the bravery gym, the mental gym of doing the hard thing, we're going to become weaker and less resilient. So the comfort trap means when you push the easy button, it makes it that much harder to be able to do the challenging thing. You know, and and when we build the muscle of bravery, and, and we can it is like building a muscle. Like, literally, our brain can rewire. We have brain plasticity that will change the way our brain um, the composition of our brain, with an increasing prefrontal cortex also the rewiring of our brain from different parts of our brain, you parts of our brain. So when we take a little step forward towards something we fear, then our confidence increases a little bit and our brain says whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What are we doing here? That was kind of hard. And so your brain, your body, is saying I need to be ready for that next time. So the more you take steps toward things that you fear in the pursuit of those worthwhile goals, you build that bravery muscle.

Speaker 1: 6:27

But every time we choose the easy button, we fall more into the comfort trap and then we're like then we feel like see, I'm not able to. So it becomes a vicious cycle and I think a lot of people are stuck that way. And some tangible examples just I see in the workplace. It's not a lack of talent, it's not a lack of capability, but fear just completely controls individuals. Let's use the example of just speaking up, like speaking up with an idea, or leaders, like having difficult conversations about performance or giving constructive feedback. You know, some leaders just avoid it because it's just uncomfortable for them, right? And then the more they avoid it, then the harder it gets, you know. So that's just one little example, but I think many of us are stuck in the comfort trap, and we've been there so long, it's so hard for us to break out.

Speaker 2: 7:22

It really is, and you touched on this a little bit as well in terms of again, some of the things that I've read about your organization is that it's helping those individuals just become aware of it because they get in it for so long it becomes easier to just hang out there and that complacency or that good enough feeling resides.

Speaker 2: 7:41

And that's not who we were created to be. It just isn't. We weren't created to be good enough, we were created to be and do so much more. You have a Marine background. I'm sure that's informed some of the book in terms of and your teaching methodology as well. Give me an example or a story from the Marines that still informs who you are today, as a person or as a leader.

Speaker 1: 8:02

Oh boy, we've got so many you know. So I would say, hey, when I first decided to try and to earn the title of United States Marine, I went the college route first. So I had a full scholarship on the Marine Corps. So that means I go to college for four years and then I'm commissioned to become an officer and I thought I knew what I was getting into but I applied on my own. My parents were not even really aware and all of a sudden I said I have a full scholarship in the Marine Corps, I'm leaving Minnesota and I'm going to San Diego. They're like what? And I was pretty confident at the time. I'm like I earned the scholarship, I had the academics, I had the leadership, I had what I thought was the fitness. And then I arrived in San Diego and I was in for a rude awakening. In fact, my first day I reported in.

Speaker 1: 8:55

So when you go to college, most kids report in, not report in. I'm using military terms go to the orientation where all the students kind of hang out. But if you're in ROTC, you got to go another week early for the orientation of Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps, rotc. But it's like a mini boot camp. And, by the way, when you report in, there's tons of people there. A majority of the midshipmen we call them are going into the Navy. They're peeling left and if you are the Marine Corps option, you go to the right.

Speaker 1: 9:27

I'm looking at, everyone go to the left and there's only a couple going to the right. And then I go to the right and no one looks like me. And then let me just tell you what I was wearing. I'm so embarrassed to admit that I put a lot of thought into my outfit. I mean I'm kind of girly. I mean that's kind of the interesting thing. I had a very successful career in the Marine Corps but I'm like I don't want to wear a dress that's too girly. But I don't want to wear jeans, because I read that jeans officers can't wear jeans. So I was wearing some some like knee length silk shorts that were hot pink and little matching heels, like I mean, what was I thinking? But I thought I looked very professional. So I don't know if you have a scene in your mind of like I'm a stunt double to legally blonde.

Speaker 2: 10:09

So I went there. I'm sorry, I went there, reese Witherspoon, that's exactly where I went. I mean, yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 10:23

So I mean, so I mean they were just, I think, salivating, going like we're going to get here. And on my first day I had one of the upperclassmen who was about to be commissioned and he came up to me and he whispered like you'll never make it as a.

Speaker 1: 10:35

Marine. So that was my. That was the first time where I am faced with a choice and this is really important for your audience Like there's big choices and there's little choices. So on that first day I'm reporting in, this was my ticket to get my college degree paid for. This was my ticket to start a career that had meaning, and I encountered some adversity. I could have chosen to quit and go back home to my family and friends in Minnesota, but in life we have choices of go the hard path or take the easy path right, and in that moment I was there to stay and so I chose, like I'm going to keep going. And it didn't get better. The second day got worse because I thought I was in shape. But do you know the hills that they have in Southern California? I was in shape, but do you know the hills that they have in Southern California? There's a place called Tecalote Canyon near University of San Diego. It is a torture chamber because it's just hills.

Speaker 1: 11:32

And on day two we went out running. You know, in our Marine Corps you know physical training gear, pt gear, and I couldn't keep up. Most of the people in my unit were actually prior enlisted Marines that earned an ability to go to college for four years. So there's some of us that fresh out of high school, but a lot of them were existing Marines, and so I wasn't keeping up and it was hard, because it is not cool, it is very shameful if you can't keep up physically. You know so, and I struggled with that for the whole first year. But each day I had to make a choice, knowing do I keep doing the hard thing, faith that with time I can grow the skill, or do I just say this is too hard, I'm going to give up? And I think this we have a parallel in the business world. Like we have really challenging goals, or we're we challenging goals or we've got some adversity that we're facing. There's huge changes there. Do we choose to keep moving forward, or even in change, because so many of my clients are facing change and uncertainty and we have a choice Do we just sit there dumbfounded and just not do anything, or do we move toward it? Like you know, we always have to be moving.

Speaker 1: 12:43

So I kept showing up and there's a happy ending to this story. I kept at it, I kept at it and then, between my junior and senior of college, you have to go to officer candidate school, which is kind of like boot camp for officers. If you can't get through officer candidate school you're not going to be able to be an officer. So I went there and after training for years and I got really strong and so when I came back from officer candidate school they measure you on physical fitness, your leadership ability, your marksmanship, like everything, and I had the highest ranking out of any one of the Marines from my school.

Speaker 1: 13:21

The prior enlisted the other students as a female, like I outranked all of them and so then my unit recognized that and they made me the midshipman battalion commander, which means I was in charge of all the students. So it's kind of that comeback story and the reason why it's so meaningful is probably because I had so much adversity, because it was so hard in the beginning, and I think that's what I really care about and why I'm so passionate the people who are struggling and don't feel like they're brave, like I'm here to help them, because you can little by little learn to be brave and when you get through that journey there is nothing that feels better as you build your self-confidence. So I know that's the story that comes to mind that relates to bravery, yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:06

I love that story. I love that story as it relates to bravery and as it relates to who you are today and I um gentlemen Roy Vaden, ceo of Brand Builders Group. He would say we are most powerfully positioned to help the person that we once were. I would imagine you can use that story of bravery, uh, in experiences with your clients, and I'll ask this without revealing any names do you have any favorite client story where you've helped them to go through something like that and do something hard and come out on the other side very successful?

Speaker 1: 14:38

Absolutely. You know, as I bring my work, the research on bravery, to programs, to companies, it's usually the little moments of someone who comes up to me and tells me their story of you know, I was scared of doing this but I was brave and I did the hard thing and as a result, I got the promotion. So there's countless, countless stories. But as I go in and I teach it to a large group where I do a keynote, and I get people reaching out to me saying like what you said mattered. And the one thing I take pride in is and I don't mean to take away from some of my fellow keynote speakers, but a lot of keynote speakers tell their inspirational story and say, look at what I've done, like, be like me and just toughen it out. But what I teach are evidence-based, evidence-based tactics I always use military terms tactics or or actions you can take that we know that will build your bravery over time and I think we have a responsibility to do that. I know that if people take action in the way that I teach them, I have no doubt that they're going to be able to get through the fear and I have all the psychology to back it up. So I have like I'm like the tough girl Marine, but I back it up.

Speaker 1: 15:53

I studied psychology and everything that I teach my, my audiences, my clients, is based on cognitive psychology. We have to first win the battle in our mind I call it the warrior mindset and then we need to, you know, but then we have to take brave action. Sometimes people like do a lot of things on mindset but then they don't take a step, like the whole mindset is to support your action. So I love doing work on mindset, but I'm like we're not going to spend all the time doing mindset stuff, like you need to take a step even if you're scared. And so we talk about the psychology and this is behavioral psychology, right. And then those are the two things that are more internal that we're working on. And then I always tell people like there's some good news. Do you want me to make it easier? And they're like, oh, my gosh, yes, please.

Speaker 1: 16:40

And then we talk about social psychology, on how, if you surround yourself with people who will not just say, oh, it's okay, just give up, it's fine, you know, be easy on yourself. No, surround yourself with people that are going to say, no, keep going, get up and try again. You can do this. So surround yourself with people who are going to challenge you, encourage you, put courage into you, you know, and that will make it easier.

Speaker 1: 17:04

It's the theory where you end up conforming to the norms of the people that you surround yourself with, you know, and people say you are who you hang out with. Well, there's psychology that backs it up. So make sure that you're regularly hanging out with, or having conversations with, people who have done the hard thing that you're going to do or seeking to do. So they can be the ones that say hey, when I was in your shoes, I struggled too, but you can do it, and it makes you feel like, oh, wow, okay, I'll keep going. So we work on mindset and actions, kind of in the individual, and then we teach in the social psychology that can make it easier for them to be brave, create the environment that makes it easier for them to take that step forward.

Speaker 2: 17:47

Love that those three steps are spot on in terms of what I wanted. To even go further, asking question developing that warrior mindset, taking bold action and curating those courageous connections is something that's kind of something that you've chatted about. What's a daily practice a leader might take to, in essence, develop that warrior mindset?

Speaker 1: 18:07

that you talk about. Yeah, so one that is very, very simple, super simple, but very powerful, is just using growth mindset by Carol Dweck, which I teach it. I like to make things simple, like in the Marine Corps, we'd always say kiss it, keep it simple, sir. Right? So there's all this evidence and fancy stuff, but you just can boil it down to one word. That's three letters and it's yet.

Speaker 1: 18:33

So when you are encountering challenges in your work and something bad happens and you're like, oh my gosh, like the world is falling apart, like we're never going to be able to, you know, overcome this challenge, you can just use the word yet, like we don't have the answers right now to solve a challenge, or we don't have the answers yet, we haven't figured out how to overcome the obstacle yet. So when you say yet, it creates this little shift in our mind of saying it is possible and think of, like warriors, what do you think Navy SEALs and Marines do? They're like, oh gosh, the enemy's in the way, oh well, we're just going to quit. No, we're like we haven't figured out how we're going to overcome it yet. And then we need to start thinking about and the reason why this is so important is if you have a pessimistic point of view saying everything is wrong and it's not going to get any better, then that impacts your actions, then you're not going to even try. So the power of yet opens up a little bit of optimism.

Speaker 1: 19:34

Marty Seligman, the father of positive psychology. He's done so much research on optimism and the reason why it's so important is if you see the little sliver of possibility, it means that there's a chance. I'm optimistic that it's possible for me to overcome the challenge. And if it's possible, then what does it do to your actions? Then you start thinking, you start brainstorming, you think about how you can do it. So that's one practical thing is just always use that.

Speaker 1: 20:01

Yet it's really easy to just be in a pity party, right, and just go like there's nothing we can do, like let's just complain about it, like all right, let's shift and say let's use the power of yet and start thinking about how we could overcome it. Right, and you know one thing, if I can say an additional thing on positive psychology, I think when people learn that I've studied positive psychology, like I, get some people like rolling their eyes oh, positive thinking right you know, and I'm like I am not woo woo, I am not happy clappy like at all.

Speaker 1: 20:31

This is about being realistic. Like this sucks. This is a huge setback. Let's be realistic. But believing a warrior mindset is believing that we can overcome this. We just got to figure out how. We don't have the answers yet, but we can figure this out and that's where that little glimmer of optimism allows everyone to start moving toward it and that's, I mean, those are the best moments. When you think back at stories and companies, you're like remember that time when we had this, oh my gosh, and all the stuff that we had to do, when we overcame it. Like those are the best of times, right.

Speaker 2: 21:06

Hey, uncommon Leaders, hope you're enjoying the episode. So far, I believe in doing business with people you like and trust, and not just a company name. That's why a strong personal brand is essential, whether you're an entrepreneur or a leader within a company. Brand Builders Group, the folks who have been helping me refine my own personal brand are offering a free consultation call with one of their expert brand strategists. They'll help you identify your uniqueness, craft a compelling story and develop a step-by-step plan to elevate your impact. So head on over to coachjohngallaghercom slash BBG, as in brand builders group, to schedule your free call and take the first step toward building a personal brand that gets you noticed for all the right reasons. That's coachjohngallaghercom slash BBG. Now let's get back to the episode.

Speaker 2: 21:46

I love that it becomes the connector, that yet becomes the connector between that mindset and that bold action that you need to take. I love kind of the picture of that, because you talked about that, the power of yet. It allows you to think about what other solutions might be there. And then again your third step ultimately those connections is having those people around you that can help lift those ideas that you have to make it happen as well, so powerful. I'll share this really quick, just because it's so recent for me.

Speaker 2: 22:15

It was just a few days ago that myself and three other guys chose the decision of doing something hard and doing our second Spartan race. We did our first one four months ago, but to wait until we were me, 56 years old and the other guys kind of in their early 50s as well to do something hard like that for the first time has the power of yet. We had been training, we were focused on being positive, but we really needed to take some bold action to really get us there. Now, whether a Spartan race is bold compared to going in the Marines as an officer in ROTC and we'll talk about that a little bit more at the end just in terms of movies. For us it was our way of choosing something hard and we had that mindset going in. That was really important. Leaders, you've got to stay on that positive side and to your point, we're not talking about foo foo positive that you know I can do whatever I want to do.

Speaker 1: 23:10

That's not what that means inside of that space. I really liked that. Yeah, you know, um just made me think. By the way, I just signed up for my first Spartan in November.

Speaker 2: 23:17

It's a stadium, so are you going to Boston and doing that 5k and you're going to be a speaker as well, cause I know Nick. He invited me to that thing. My problem with November 8th is November 15th is the. Is the half marathon Spartan that we're running in South Carolina. I'm like do I want to run a stadium and do I look first?

Speaker 1: 23:37

of all, be careful. You know what, John? It would be a good workout, the stadiums are. That's what it is, that's the new finisher.

Speaker 2: 23:42

That's what I'm trying to tell myself. Positive mindset.

Speaker 2: 23:46

More your mindset, absolutely. First of all, be careful with Spartans. It has nothing to do with anything physical. It has to do with the community. That is an unbelievable community of one of the things I didn't expect. That connection that you talk about in terms of a group of thousands of people that are there really for the same reason yeah, they want to win and get on the pedestal, but the majority of those individuals are there just to do something hard and say they did it and accomplish it. I'm like man. I never would have thought I'd be able to do that. That's what I make up about that crowd anyway.

Speaker 1: 24:16

And then I'm hearing the way you speak. You're like I never thought I could do that, but I did. I'm Spartan.

Speaker 2: 24:25

It makes you feel unstoppable, and did it suck?

Speaker 1: 24:27

Oh gosh, the hardest thing I've ever done physically, no doubt about it, exactly, and so in the Marine Corps and in the Navy SEALs we have this little saying and we say embrace the suck right. And this is what. I mean Sometimes and it's so funny because it was just the saying that we used to say and it was a silly saying, and I'm like they're just trying to make our misery like better, like this is just trying to trick us. But now that I've studied psychology, I'm like how we react to it.

Speaker 2: 24:52

So this is the work of Aaliyah Crum, kelly McGonigal.

Speaker 1: 25:04

They've done research on mindset, on stress. If you think stress and challenges are horrible and they're going to ruin your life and you're going to die because you're experiencing stress and all that, you will have a negative response to stress physiologically and how you deal with the obstacle. But if you have a mindset on stress that is this is gonna make me stronger. These challenges are gonna grow. My cognitive capacity If it's something at work, a challenge, my physical capacity if it's a Spartan race, if you're seeking challenge and going like I want it to be hard because this is gonna make me stronger. So that embrace the suck that term. It is actually valid from a psychological point of view. So I don't know if you've looked at any of like Aaliyah Crum or Kelly McGonigal's work. She did like a TEDx talk too, but they literally did a study in companies, because a lot of people in your audience, you know are in the workplace. They literally went into a company and they studied their mindset on stress and then related it to performance and health outcomes and half the people they told stress is good for you, stress makes you stronger, stress is your body's way of preparing you for something that's important.

Speaker 1: 26:18

Stress is the thing that makes life great, because it makes you grow and develop and meet your potential. So group number one was told stress is good. Group number two was told stress is horrible. You need to avoid challenges, you need to make it like the complete opposite. And so both I guess arms of the study were told a different message in different rooms. They thought they're hearing the same thing. And then they followed these people and they put them in stressful situations at work. It was in a finance company and probably no surprise. But those individuals that were taught that stress is good, they perform better, they had higher work satisfaction and they actually looked at some health outcomes. They even had higher levels of DHEA.

Speaker 2: 26:58

Oh yeah, absolutely HRV, heart rate variability, whatever method you want, I mean whatever longevity and response to stress, all of it.

Speaker 1: 27:07

Just mindset on stress, just that little thing. So that's why I say warrior mindset. I want people to reach their potential. I want them to know you've got to use the power of yet. But I want you to realize that when a challenge comes your way, when you have that, you're at a crossroads and you have to choose. Am I going to face it Now, I'm going to turn left, which is going to be challenging, or am I going to choose the easy path? I also say to my audience are you going to be brave? Are you going to cower? Because that's exactly what it is. When you choose to be brave and move forward like it is, when you choose to be brave and move forward like it is, it is these are the best things in life, and so I'm so it all starts in mindset. So just when you, when I see a challenge now, I'm like bring it. I love challenges now and I think my brain is rewired Like the harder the better. I love challenges because I know what makes me stronger.

Speaker 2: 27:58

You know I want to put a shameless plug in here. You mentioned the race in boston on november 8th. If you all want to get a chance to see jill speak as well on november 9th, nick hutchson, the ceo of book thinkers he's holding an event in boston. You can go to bookthinkerscom and look that up for that event. It's going to be a phenomenal event to learn from speakers and podcasters that are influencing, impacting and encouraging all kinds of leaders to do those hard things, just like you're talking about Jill and have that warrior mindset. So a little shameless plug in there for Nick. I'll copy him on the text on this to let him know we talked about it and I hope now you've got me to where I almost here's that challenge again, that warrior mindset. I got to be there November 8th and run in Fenway Park, which I have some friends in Boston as well that I'm trying to encourage to be there that day also and run.

Speaker 1: 28:47

John, you need to come with. You got to be there.

Speaker 2: 28:50

I think you just helped me make the decision, jill. I'm going to be there November 8th. I'll be there for the 5K, regardless of what my body tells me, so we'll see how that goes.

Speaker 1: 28:58

It's a good training run. It's a great warm-up.

Speaker 2: 29:01

I got you. Yeah, it's nothing. 5k is nothing compared to 20, 21K. Yeah, we'll see. Stay idiots. I can't imagine what this thing's going to be like.

Speaker 2: 29:09

Anyway, back to you. Look some of my favorite authors Andy Andrews, patrick Lencioni, robin Sharma. They use fables to tell their story, to tell their leadership tips. Your book Bravery Effect is also a fable. It's a story that you've written rather than choosing to write a tactical paint-by-numbers book. Tell me a little bit about what you led to write it as a story and how that was for you in authoring it.

Speaker 1: 29:34

I knew 10 years ago that when I wrote a book, it would be a parable, a fable, and what influenced me is Len Sione's book. Yes, but I discovered this book before the, my first. The first book that I read that really influenced me was the new the one minute manager.

Speaker 2: 29:52

Sure Spencer, john, yeah, I'm here. Yeah, those guys, those three guys, yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:56

Yeah, so such a fantastic book. In fact, when I go into companies and I do a lot of leadership development work as well I always recommend New Leaders. Everyone has to read that book and it makes such an impact because it takes lessons and it makes them sticky right. And then I love Lencioni's. I love I mean there's so many examples. I love John Gordon's books.

Speaker 1: 30:20

Absolutely John Gordon as well, no doubt so all these people that have written these books and they make a big impact and they make the scientific information stick and, being kind of a nerd at heart, I sometimes get a little too like scientific and I'm like I challenge myself to make this one a parable. So that way I have a couple of motivations. Number one is I want people to remember it so that it sticks. Number two, I want people to read all the way to the end of the book, and when it's a story you've got to get to the end.

Speaker 1: 30:48

How many business books do I have where I read I get maybe halfway through, like maybe you know if it's really good, but sometimes I don't get through the whole thing, and so I wanted to do that. And then Ken Blanchard has become a mentor of mine.

Speaker 2: 31:01

He wrote the fourth book.

Speaker 1: 31:03

He'll be at my little book launch party. John Gordon is another mentor of mine and the link here between the book that I wrote as a parable and then what's in the book is I talk about that brave tribe. You've got to curate these courageous connections like who you hang out with. So when I decided to write a book, I'm like I'm thinking like I need to surround myself with people who have successfully written and published bestselling books and I need to be brave enough to approach them, because you're a little intimidated by them, and then brave enough to be vulnerable and say I have no idea what I'm doing. So I did that with Ken, I've done that with John, so I've got these amazing people that have given me their guidance as mentors.

Speaker 1: 31:48

So I think so many times in the business world like we see a leader that's two levels higher than us and we're like well, they don't want to help me, they don't want to help me. Like we just assume and we go to work and we pretend like we have all the answers. No, we just assume and we go to work and we pretend like we have all the answers. No, I'm fine, I don't need anything bullcrap yes, you do, you need advice and mentors stop.

Speaker 1: 32:07

you know, this is where so many, a lot of macho men are like I'm brave, I have no problem, I do all this, I'm like all right, let's talk about your bravery when it comes to relationships. How are you at admitting mistakes and admitting when you need help? Oh, mr bravery, mr Bravery or Miss Bravery, so that's a big part of you know. My model too is you know you've got to be open to ask for feedback, ask for help. So part of bravery is approaching the people that you look up to that have accomplished what you want to accomplish, and then reaching out and asking for help or asking for suggestions, and you can accomplish that goal so much faster if you can be brave in that vulnerable sense when it comes to brave relationships.

Speaker 2: 32:51

Jill. I love that and, as I just kind of again listen through and hear that, I hope that we can get your book in the hands of all members of Congress and the executive branch of our government as well, to really learn about admitting mistakes and finding and asking for input and things like that, because it's a disease that our country has suffered from for a long time, that they could use a good dose of humility in asking for a challenge. There's no doubt about it. When you think about those who have now read the book, they've gotten to the end, okay.

Speaker 2: 33:23

And they take your book and they put it up on a bookshelf, like the ones behind us, and they look at it in a year. Okay, here's the book test. What do you want them to think when they see that book a year from now?

Speaker 1: 33:37

I want them to think about what do they really want? But they're not moving forward on and I want them to act immediately. So I want them to remember what they learned in the book run toward what scares you in the best possible way, like you have fears that are so it's. It's really the, the core message, which is what do I want? I'm scared of doing it. Do not wait until you feel ready. Do not wait for the fear to go away. You just have to run toward it. It is action, it's taking steps forward that creates the momentum. So we all know that life that we want is not the life that we have right now. We have those goals in front of us. Stop waiting. Stop waiting for the time to be right. Just take brave action. You know what Marines do? We attack the hill, we just charge forward. I want you to charge forward Because the potential of that is greater levels of success and what I'm most excited about in my research and this is where I do get a little woo-woo everything that I teach helps people accomplish more, be more successful, make more money, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1: 34:43

But you know what I care about that, but you know what I really care about. I care about overall happiness and well-being, because that is what positive psychology is. It's a scientific study of elevating happiness and well-being. Brave and accomplish these meaningful things that you really want in life. You will get such an increase, a boost in your life satisfaction, your happiness and your well-being.

Speaker 1: 35:07

A lot of people confuse. They think, oh, happiness is just smiling every day. No, like, there's so much more to living a fulfilled life than that. Smiling. Laughing every day is just one small portion. So this and I think there's confusion on the world especially I see the world through my kids' eyes. They think like, oh, happiness is just like everything being handed to me and just and and being comfortable and smiling all day. That is not the recipe for a good life. That is actually a shortcut for an unfulfilled life filled with anxiety and depression. That is what that is. So you know. So what I care about most is for people applying what they learned so that they can look back at their life without regret and lived an amazing life.

Speaker 1: 35:52

That's what I care about. It's who people become on the journey, when they become brave. It is. It's amazing when I hear from people who have heard me speak or have put these things to practice and they're like I'm. I'm a different person than I was before and I never knew I could do this person and I'm and I look in the mirror with pride now. I can't believe I did that. And you hear these stories and you're like you had it in you the whole time. You were just letting fear control you and you've learned to conquer that fear. It's, it's so exciting.

Speaker 2: 36:20

Jill, I love that, love that man. I've enjoyed our conversation and I know some of the things you're saying. Like I want to spill my own stories of failure on you and like, help me with this one kind of thing, as I lived through it, and maybe when we're on the Spartan race course and we're taking it easy so I can go forward, then, then uh, but we're going to finish that sucker, um. I'll share some of those stories with you in November in Boston, of where I have some of those times I didn't charge forward and some of those times that I did. Um, when, as we're recording this, we're a couple of weeks out from when your book is launching, when we get it out and make it live, folks are still going to be able to either pre-order, uh, but certainly it's going to be real close to when your book's coming out. Where do you want them to go to get your book and how can they connect with you?

Speaker 1: 37:02

Yeah, thank you so much. So please go to my website, jillschulmancom. It's just spelled, it's very easy, jill, but last name is S-C-H-U-L-M-A, and if you go there, I've got a couple freebies for your audience, which is there is a free bravery assessment. It only takes a couple of minutes and it gives you an idea on where are you strong in terms of mindset, actions and those brave relationships. So there's a free assessment that you can take. Also, if you buy the book in terms of pre-order on my website, you can let people know that I have pre-ordered it, and then we give you some free resources. We give you the first six books of the first I'm sorry, first six chapters of the book right away so you can get started reading as you're waiting for it. And then we have all kinds of other little freebies. We have a brave action guide which gives you some of the evidence-based practices right away. We also give you a free discussion guide, because I really recommend that you read the book with the team that you lead at work for leaders out there, and there's a great discussion guide so that we can start being braver at work to be able to accomplish our goals. So all those freebies. So jillschulmancom is a great place to go. Make sure you go there first so you can get all the freebies. You can take the assessment.

Speaker 1: 38:14

Of course, the book will be available. I mean you can pre-order it now on Amazon and any of those things, and then you can follow me on any social media. For anyone that's in the professional workplace. If you're on LinkedIn, please follow me on LinkedIn. Another thing that can help with our brave mindset is making sure that we're surrounding ourselves with messages daily that help boost our courage. So I make a commitment to do that. So if you follow me, just a little message maybe it's a quote from Epictetus or a little video of me for 15 seconds give you those little reminders every day to choose the hard path.

Speaker 2: 38:49

Yeah, those daily devotions, if you will, that commitment to just keep it in the front of your mind, because that's important, that you continue to feed your mind those positive things. But, as you say, then it's taking bold action and curating those connections. Man, I've enjoyed this conversation. I want to respect your time, though, as well. Jill, I know that I believe the listeners of the Uncommon Leader podcast are going to find great value in our conversation today, as well as in your book. I know I've got mine pre-ordered and again, some folks will listen to this after the book is launched. That's okay. I've got mine pre-ordered and again, some folks will listen to this after the book is launched. That's okay.

Speaker 2: 39:23

Go out there and get a copy of the book and review it with your team. I'm quite sure it's going to be a bestseller. So get out there and add it to your library of books. Jill, I'm going to give you the last word. I'm going to give you a billboard. We're going to put it outside Fenway Park. The outside you can put any message that you want to on that billboard.

Speaker 2: 39:42

What's the message that you put on there and why?

Speaker 1: 39:47

I would have to choose. Comfort and growth do not coexist Just simple. I'm not the first one who've said it, but that's that universal truth, just simple. I'm not the first one who've said it, but that's that universal truth. And the reason I choose that is I feel like the world needs a little bit of a reminder of the truth of what we know in psychology that if we want to grow, if we want to develop, if we want to be happy, if we want to be successful, comfort is not going to get us there. So I want everyone to embrace discomfort. If we want to grow, if we want to develop, if we want to be happy, if we want to be successful, comfort is not going to get us there. So I want everyone to embrace discomfort as the most wonderful way for your brain and your body to adapt. Go to a Spartan race, challenge your body, challenge your mind and you will have a great life. So that is my final word.

Speaker 2: 40:36

So great. Jill, thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 40:38

All right, have a good one. Thanks so great, jill. Thank you so much, all right have a good one.

Speaker 2: 40:43

Thanks for having me. And that wraps up another episode of the uncommon leader podcast. Thanks for tuning in today. If you found value in this episode, I encourage you to share it with your friends, colleagues or anyone else who could benefit from the insights and inspiration we've shared. Also, if you have a moment, I'd greatly appreciate if you could leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback not only helps us to improve, but it also helps others discover the podcast and join our growing community of uncommon leaders. Until next time, go and grow champions.