Episode 192: STOP Doing This, The Real Cause of Executive Burnout (It's Not Overwork) w/ Zach White

In this highly searchable and essential episode, host John Gallagher interviews Zach White, PhD, mechanical engineer turned executive coach and founder of the Oasis of Courage. This episode is a must-listen for Executive Leaders and Engineering Managers struggling with balance and burnout.

Zach destroys the conventional wisdom of Work/Life Balance, arguing it is a myth based on a flawed mental model. He presents the only path to sustainable success: Whole Life Balance (the "Wheel of Life").

Top Takeaways for Leaders:

• The REAL Cause of Burnout
• The Lone Wolf Trap
• The 2 Non-Negotiable Habits
• The Venturi Effect
• Final Mantra: "Crush comfort, create courage."

Don't let the "wobbly wheel" of imbalance dictate your career. Listen now and share this blueprint for high-impact, sustainable leadership.

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🚀𝐒𝐩𝐨𝐭𝐢𝐟𝐲: 💚 https://open.spotify.com/show/5uJi4cd4vbTeLTweSKz9FR?si=b4a655399eb248e5
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𝐓𝐢𝐦𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐦𝐩 𝐁𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐤𝐝𝐨𝐰𝐧:
0:00 - Welcome And Guest Introduction
2:05 - Hitting Rock Bottom And Finding Coaching
4:55 - Solitude, Fasting, And The Birth Of Oasis Of Courage
8:20 - Burnout Isn’t What You Think
13:15 - Disciplines Held By Community
17:45 - Accountability Partners And Masterminds
22:05 - Whole Life Balance Vs Work Life Balance
27:30 - The Power And Payoff Of Niching Down
31:45 - Serving Skeptical Engineers And Driving Change
35:55 - Free Coaching Offer And Closing Wisdom

𝐂𝐨𝐧𝐧𝐞𝐜𝐭 𝐰𝐢𝐭𝐡 Zach:👇
➡️ 𝐋𝐢𝐧𝐤𝐞𝐝𝐈𝐧 (primary): https://www.linkedin.com/in/thezachwhite/
➡️ 𝐈𝐧𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐠𝐫𝐚𝐦: https://www.instagram.com/thehappyengineerpodcast/
➡️ 𝐅𝐚𝐜𝐞𝐛𝐨𝐨𝐤: https://www.facebook.com/thehappyengineerpodcast/
➡️ 𝐖𝐞𝐛𝐬𝐢𝐭𝐞:  https://www.oasisofcourage.com

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Guest Introduction
• 2:05 Hitting Rock Bottom And Finding Coaching
• 4:55 Solitude, Fasting, And The Birth Of Oasis Of Courage
• 8:20 Burnout Isn’t What You Think
• 13:15 Disciplines Held By Community
• 17:45 Accountability Partners And Masterminds
• 22:05 Whole Life Balance Vs Work Life Balance
• 27:30 The Power And Payoff Of Niching Down
• 31:45 Serving Skeptical Engineers And Driving Change
• 35:55 Free Coaching Offer And Closing Wisdom

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

It's easy to assign blame to the things that we can see. And our brain likes to, you know, when you feel pain, it looks around and it looks for a source. What's causing that pain? Was it the flame on the stove that burned my hand?

SPEAKER_05: 0:25

Hey, Uncommon Leaders, welcome back. This is the Uncommon Leader Podcast. I'm your host, John Gallagher. So sometimes you find a unicorn when you're looking for a guest to be on your podcast. And what does that mean for me in terms of a unicorn to some of the shared stories that we might have going back way over time? Zach White is my guest today. He's a mechanical engineer turned lifestyle coach. Very similar, kind of the same bloodline as I've been in. So I look forward to learning a little bit about his journey, but also about some of the things that he's done in his career and what he does today as a coach. He's led nine-figure projects in the Fortune 200 with companies such as Facebook, Apple, Amazon, and Google, and has also coached those executives now that he's in the space that he is with regards to coaching. He's the founder of the Oasis of Courage organization, uh, OECO. We talked about how to say that at the start. And he's the host of the Happy Engineer podcast. I would like to learn a little bit more about that as we go through this conversation as well. But he's here to show us ultimately how to uh swap out the word work life balance as a myth for whole life balance and how to escape the trap of burnout. So, Zach White, welcome to the Uncommon Leader Podcast. I hope you're doing well. How are you today?

SPEAKER_01: 1:37

Don, I'm happy to be here. What a blessing. And you are an uncommon leader. What a joy to spend time today. Thanks, Pan.

SPEAKER_05: 1:43

Yeah, I think that, like I said, we are a little bit of those unicorns, those engineers that aren't really stuck in engineering and end up, you know, doing some of these things to have impact. And that's my really my first question as we go forward. Was there a moment or was there a time you said, I'm not really kind of this engineer or this project engineer anymore in these nine-figure organizations? I feel like I should be a coach of engineers or engineering managers.

SPEAKER_01: 2:05

Well, I certainly never saw this coming, John. But in my career working in engineering, like many folks, I had a big ambition. I wanted to grow. I wanted to get promoted. I wanted to be somebody, you know, make my mom proud. And unfortunately, I made some really big mistakes in the pursuit of that success. I ended up in a rock bottom experience, my own burnout experience, divorced, depressed, very embarrassed about how my life had ended up in this place where I had come from valedictorian and most likely to succeed, and uh thought I was gonna be somebody. And I would have traded all those long hours at work and promotions for a second chance. But unfortunately, sometimes you learn life's lessons the hard way. And coming out of that experience is when I hired my first coach. And I really was blessed by that process, the self-awareness, the deep questioning, the journey through career and life with a guide, somebody alongside to work with and help me along the way. It made a tremendous impact. And I went deep into personal development at that time. Honestly, John, just to recover in my life and career, I still wanted to be an executive, to, you know, grow in my engineering career path. And that's what I was doing. But in 2019, I was a senior manager in engineering at the time, had a big team. We were running big projects. And I had this weekend I set aside for what I call solitude and silence. It was a discipline that I built into my life where I would take three days in fasting, just drinking water only. I'd go off and find a quiet place, take a journal, and I wouldn't talk to anybody. I wouldn't listen to any podcast, read any books, just me in a journal for three days in fasting, silence, and prayer to check in with my life and see you know what comes up. What does God want to tell me? And that weekend, I had the download moment. I was sitting there thinking about my career, my passion for engineering, and I was reflecting on the impact that coaching had had in my life. And I still had coaches. I had actually never let that go ever since uh the divorce and that time. I'd always had a coach ever since. I just fell in love with coaching. And there was this little itch about business. You know, maybe it's time to leave the W-2 world and start my own business. And these three things were swirling around in my brain on this weekend. And it's like the second day, you're still getting a little hungry, and everything's going on in this fasting. And just boom, it hit me right there. I think there's something at the intersection of engineering, coaching, and business that is what I'm called to do. And the oasis of courage was born that day. I didn't know it at that time that that's what it would be, but that's where the idea got planted in my heart. And it wasn't long after that I spoke with my wife. I had been remarried since then, happily married to Johanna, and said, Hey, I got this crazy idea. I think, I think God's telling me to go start a business coaching engineers. I have no idea how that will work, but what do you think? And the moment I knew it was time to quit, John, was when she looked me in the eye and said, When do we start? And that support from her was the green light for me. It's like, okay, I'm I'm ready to do this and had no idea it would one day be uh the organization that it is now. Uh and actually never intended to name it the Oasis of Courage. That was my personal life mission statement, but topic for later if you wanted to hear about it. And that's how that's how it came to be. And so I look back and think, wow, how strange. Because I'm passionate about engineering. Once you're an engineer, you're always an engineer, I think, in some capacity. I became an engineer, not to be an engineer, but to help engineers. And if I hadn't gone through my own, you know, decade plus in that career path, I would not be able to do what I do now. So I feel really blessed for the journey.

SPEAKER_05: 5:51

Zach, so appreciate you sharing that. Boy, I'd love to say my journey into coaching and starting growing champions around the same time in 2019. Maybe we can talk about that sometime. You know, to honor, you know, what you talked about in the discipline of fasting and journaling and really listening for the voice of God inside of that. I mean, an uncommon approach in terms of what's happening. And then to act on that voice uh is pretty powerful as well. Certainly understanding where there's support uh in the family as well, that makes it makes it even better. Such, such a great story. And look, listening through this, we're gonna get to how that oasis of occurrence then and that life mission state, and we're gonna get to that one, no doubt about it. The level of awareness in the side of the engineer uh and how you didn't get into engineering to be an engineer. Uh, I think we had a similar path there. And I love, you know, we have a common connection, if you will, knowledge of brand builders group. One of the things that Rory Vaden has always said, and it sticks with me, and folks probably get tired of hearing me say it too many times, but I have to give him attribution for it is that we're most powerfully positioned to help that person that we once were.

SPEAKER_00: 6:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_05: 6:57

And I sense that that's what you're doing uh inside of your work right now. Now, you mentioned you went through burnout and many different things that were the outcome of that burnout, divorce, some of the things probably your health was probably impacted as well as you went through that. But it's interesting, and when I've gotten ready for this, you say that burnout is not necessarily caused by what we're doing, but what we're not doing. Tell me more about that in terms of how is burnout caused by something we're not doing.

SPEAKER_01: 7:24

It's easy to assign blame to the things that we can see. And our brain likes to, yeah, when you feel pain, it looks around and it looks for a source. What's causing that pain? Was it the flame on the stove that burned my hand? Okay, flame is hot. Don't do that. And so when you're burning out, your brain just looks around at what's going on in your life and it says, these must be the cause of these negative emotions or this energy drain or this depression or this experience. And so we look at what we can see. And the things that we see are working long hours, or that boss that we really don't like, that toxic culture at work, or the colleague who's really hard to get along with, or maybe a loved one at home that we're in conflict with and we're not resolving, you know, those marital or relationship issues, or the kids that are misbehaving. We just assign the cause to those things we can see. And what I've found is that those things are not the primary cause of burnout. They can accelerate your burnout. Let's be fair. They're not without challenge. But the thing that is at primary cause is what you have let go in the process of moving towards those things. So as you work the longer hours, maybe you stop going to the gym. You're not taking care of your body. You work the longer hours and you stay up late on the laptop till 1 a.m., 2 a.m. trying to get to that magical inbox zero that doesn't even really matter, and you're not sleeping as many hours or as well as you used to. You know, you're in that conflict with your boss and you're in a high stress situation and you're feeling that stress, but then you're not taking the time to decompress, to get help, to pray, to share it with someone, to do the things that are going to help you to relieve that stress, get back into a holistic, balanced place. So all these little mechanisms that show up steal from you the very thing that keeps you balanced in your whole life. And so we blame all those things, but John, I I work more hours than I ever did at Whirlpool when I launched my company. And it didn't burn me out at all. And so what's the difference? Right? You can always find these sort of exceptions to those rules. And the reason I found is because it's about how you create a whole life balance and paying attention to what's missing and in a sense counterbalancing those challenging forces. Be careful just looking around your life and assuming that those are the things that are creating your negative experience. In many cases, it's what you have neglected that kills your life, not the things that you're investing into.

SPEAKER_05: 10:00

That's so good. And again, as I really think about some of the things that you said, that we stop doing on our way to success. And you mentioned even in your new career as a coach, that you probably work more hours now than you did before. But I sense two things. There's disciplines for, and we'll get to these those in just a minute, that you've put in place that ensure that you don't go back to that point again. But the second part is what you've really, you know, ultimately have found your flow area in terms of when you're working, you feel really good about it. And then a lot of folks will say if you find what you love, you'll never work a day in your life. Just not true based on what you said, but that if you find what you're love doing and what you're good at, that you'll work as much as you need to to be successful in that space and you'll probably work harder because you're passionate about it. You found something there. So, what are some of the disciplines that you've had to put in place to ensure that you don't go back to that burnout time that you're in?

SPEAKER_01: 10:59

For me, the fundamental discipline is getting outside of myself, letting go of my ego, and involving my community in my success. So the word discipline is so important. I believe that it's a key to everyone's success, but I also see most people talking about discipline as only a characteristic about me. It's my willpower, it's my ability to drive it. I don't need any help and accountability, I don't need anybody, you know, to support me. Like the ultimate is if you could do it on your own, this sort of rugged individualism that's very typical of the West. And I think it's a powerful trait, and it can be a dangerous way to think about discipline. It's great if you can wake up at 4 a.m. and go to the gym and hit it hard and do all these things on your own without any outside support, but that is extremely uncommon and difficult. And frankly, it's not as fun. You know, there's something to me about disciplines when they're shared in community that makes it easier and more enjoyable. So everything that I've built into my life, you know, I could tell you all of my morning routine habits, I could tell you about how I discipline life purpose and my vision and productivity. But it's, you know, there's a pillar there around people. And so I think if you want to be an uncommon leader, you must begin by surrendering this belief that it's better to do it myself, or that somehow I need to be the one who solves it. My discipline is held together by the glue and the fabric of my tribe and the people who I trust. And when I look back at what led to my burnout, John, one of the biggest lessons I learned was that I fell into that hero mentality, that lone wolf mentality. And even worse is that I kept all of my challenges, all of the struggles of my life, I kept them secret. I didn't tell anybody what I was suffering through. I just thought I need to fix it. I gotta do this on my own. And keeping those secrets was what was the cancer in my body and in my mind that really accelerated that fall off the cliff in my life. So, you know, you can talk about like Tim Ferris and all the little habits. And, you know, do you put lemon in your water in the morning and it's warm or is it cold? And those things are great. I'm an engineer. I can nerd out on that stuff all day. But if I was gonna just say the most uncommon thing, especially in the engineering world, it's to get out of that lone wolf mentality, to don't let your introversion or shyness get in the way of having a community to support your disciplines and your success. That will take you further than any morning routine ever will.

SPEAKER_05: 13:44

No, I love that. And even as I look back at engineering in school, that's been a few years for me, a few more years than you. Um, the success that I had was not until we created a group, a community of folks to study together, even as individual contribution with regards to courses, but you know, being together with a group that continues on for me. Uh, I can think of two right off the bat that exist. One is a tech string that I have with four other guys that we're going through on our exercise and hashtagging how many calories we burn. And we're getting ready to do a half marathon Spartan race here in less than two weeks as I record this together. That we never would have done something hard like that had we tried to do that on our own, we probably would have failed miserably. So that community, second thing for me, and I just had uh came this morning from a men's study group, a Bible study group, to your point. Again, being able to share some of those things that are happening in my life and having a group of men around me to really add in. So there's just three ways in terms of community really works, and I think you're absolutely spot on with regards to trying to be the hero of our own story. Yeah. Uh something that we don't need to be. So give me one, give me a community uh dis uh habit. I won't call it a discipline anymore. I'll call it a community uh exercise that you do that that keeps you in that space.

SPEAKER_01: 15:06

Absolutely. So number one is having a person, at least one, with whom you're fully known. So for me, I would call this an accountability partner, is a good name, but you might just say it's a best friend. Someone who you do not keep secrets from. Someone who has permission in your life to ask you any question and you'll tell them the truth, and you make it a priority to connect with that person and have those conversations on a regular basis. So I have two of those people in my life, Gavin and Dave. You know, Gavin is my accountability partner in the more business sense of things and just kind of coaching. He's also a coach and he's awesome. And Dave is my best friend for a long, long time. And these two men have permission to enter into my life in any way. I'm fully known to them. There's no secrets. So I think having that type of relationship, and for men especially, that we're very guarded around this. Women are more likely to share their story with each other, and men are more likely to just, you know, shut up and play golf, right? Let's see what I think that's a discipline, a habit of relationship that will serve you in a big way is to create that accountability partnership, that deep, fully known relationship. That's number one. The second is masterminding. And so we mentioned already Rory Vaden and the brand builders group as an example. There's many different types of groups out there, but when I think of a mastermind, a shared purpose, you know, this community is uh set toward a common aim. They're not doing the exact same thing, but we're moving in the same direction. We care about the same things, we share really core values around how we're gonna pursue those aims, and we sharpen each other. It's that iron sharpens iron uh idea. And so each person individually is in pursuit of greatness, and we collectively are in pursuit of greatness, and like anything, a commitment to the group. I'm giving more than I'm even receiving, which ultimately means I'm gonna receive tenfold. You can never out give God, right? If you just keep giving to that community and everybody takes that spirit, man, it's uh rocket fuel for your success. So those two things, I think if you can have that one-on-one accountability partnership, that fully known relationship of trust, which is earned by the way. You don't just pick a random person and you're gonna say, hey, I'm gonna tell them everything. There's there's work to create those relationships. I want to acknowledge that, but it's worth it. It's worth doing that work. And then finding a mastermind community. I'm biased towards investing in that financially because when you put your money in the game, it gets your attention, right? People who pay, pay attention. And I think that helps level up the commitment. But it doesn't have to be. You can create a masterminding community on your own at no cost as well. But if you can, I would really encourage you to find a group and invest in that. Even worse is that I kept all of my challenges, all of the struggles of my life, I kept them secret. I didn't tell anybody what I was suffering through. I just thought I need to fix it. I gotta do this on my own. And keeping those secrets was what that was the cancer in my body and in my mind that really accelerated that fall off the cliff in my life. So, you know, you can talk about like Tim Ferris and all the little habits. And, you know, do you put lemon in your water in the morning? It's warm or is it cold? And those things are great. I'm an engineer. I can nerd out on that stuff all day. But if I was gonna just say the most uncommon thing, especially in the engineering world, it's to get out of that lone wolf mentality, to don't let your introversion or shyness get in the way of having a community to support your disciplines and your success. That will take you further than any morning routine ever will.

SPEAKER_05: 18:50

No, I love that. And even as I look back at engineering in school, that's been a few years for me, a few more years than you. Um, the success that I had was not until we created a group, a community of folks to study together, even as individual contribution with regards to courses, but you know, being together with a group that continues on for me. Uh, I can think of two right off the bat that exist. One is a tech string that I have with four other guys that we're going through on our exercise and hashtagging how many calories we burn, and we're getting ready to do a half marathon Spartan race here in less than two weeks as I record this together. That we never would have done something hard like that had we tried to do that on our own, we probably would have failed miserably. So that community, second thing for me, and I just had uh came this morning from a men's study group, a Bible study group, to your point. Again, being able to share some of those things that are happening in my life and having a group of men around me to really add in. So there's just three ways in terms of community really works, and I think you're absolutely spot on with regards to trying to be the hero of our own story. Yeah, uh, something that we don't need to be. So give me one, give me a community uh dis uh habit. I won't call it a discipline anymore, I'll call it a community uh exercise that you do that keeps you in that space.

SPEAKER_01: 20:11

Absolutely. So, number one is having a person, at least one, with whom you're fully known. So for me, I would call this an accountability partner, is a good name, but you might just say it's a best friend. Someone who you do not keep secrets from.

SPEAKER_05: 20:26

Someone who's common leaders, hope you're enjoying the episode so far. I believe in doing business with people you like and trust and not just a company name. That's why a strong personal brand is essential, whether you're an entrepreneur or a leader within a company. Brand Builders Group, the folks who have been helping me refine my own personal brand, are offering a free consultation call with one of their expert brand strategists. They'll help you identify your uniqueness, craft a compelling story, and develop a step-by-step plan to elevate your impact. So head on over to CoachJongGallagher.com slash BBG, as in brand builders group, to schedule your free call and take the first step toward building a personal brand that gets you noticed for all the right reasons. That's coachjohngallagher.com slash BBG. Now, let's get back to the episode. Love that. So again, you have those individual one-on-one relationships you have. You also have those group group mastermind or other group type relationships that really work out. I think both of those uh are spot on again in all the areas of our life. And again, now we get into a little bit more about the coaching again. You know, I often talk about in six areas. You got your work area that you need to have a coach in, and that what you're doing, and it sounds like you do that as all, but there's also your faith, your fitness, your fun, your friendships or relationships that you have, and even your finances where you need coaches. And I think, at least for learning for me, in terms of that coaching journey that started for me being coached about 20 years ago, is recognizing that frankly, I'm not going to go as far as my potential without that coaching, without that feedback, without that one-on-one in any of those areas. One of the things that you talk about in your coaching, and I love this, and I'm in full agreement, but I want you to talk to the listeners about this, is the difference between uh work life balance, that is a myth, and whole life balance. Tell me a little bit more about that and how you kind of, you know, what are your thoughts around that?

SPEAKER_01: 22:11

Yeah. As an engineer, I think in mental models in that.

SPEAKER_05: 22:14

Love that. So again, you have those individual one-on-one relationships you have. You also have those group group mastermind or other group type relationships that really work out. I think both of those uh are spot on again in all the areas of our life. And again, now we get into a little bit more about the coaching again. You know, I often talk about in six areas. You got your work area that you need to have a coach in, and that what you're doing, and it sounds like you do that as all, but there's also your faith, your fitness, your fun, your friendships or relationships that you have, and even your finances where you need coaches. And I think, at least for learning for me, in terms of that coaching journey that started for me being coached about 20 years ago, is recognizing that frankly, I'm not going to go as far as my potential without that coaching, without that feedback, without that one-on-one in any of those areas. One of the things that you talk about in your coaching, and I love this, and I'm in full agreement, but I want you to talk to the listeners about this, is the difference between uh work-life balance, that is a myth, and whole life balance. Tell me a little bit more about that and how you kind of, you know, what are your thoughts around that?

SPEAKER_01: 23:19

Yeah. As an engineer, I think in mental models in that.

SPEAKER_05: 23:22

Love that. So again, you have those individual one-on-one relationships you have. You also have those group group mastermind or other group type relationships that really work out. I think both of those uh are spot on again in all the areas of our life. And again, now we get into a little bit more about the coaching again. You know, I often talk about in six areas. You got your work area that you need to have a coach in and that what you're doing, and it sounds like you do that as all, but there's also your faith, your fitness, your fun, your friendships or relationships that you have, and even your finances where you need coaches. And I think, at least for learning for me, in terms of that coaching journey that started for me being coached about 20 years ago, is recognizing that frankly, I'm not going to go as far as my potential without that coaching, without that feedback, without that one-on-one in any of those areas. One of the things that you talk about in your coaching, and I love this, and I'm in full agreement, but I want you to talk to the listeners about this, is the difference between uh work life balance, that is a myth, and whole life balance. Tell me a little bit more about that and how you kind of, you know, what are your thoughts around that?

SPEAKER_01: 24:27

Yeah. As an engineer, I think in mental models in that.

SPEAKER_05: 24:31

Love that. So again, you have those individual one-on-one relationships you have. You also have those group group mastermind or other group type relationships that really work out. I think both of those uh are spot on again in all the areas of our life. And again, now we get into a little bit more about the coaching again. You know, I often talk about in six areas. You got your work area that you need to have a coach in and that what you're doing, and it sounds like you do that as all, but there's also your faith, your fitness, your fun, your friendships or relationships that you have, and even your finances where you need coaches. And I think, at least for learning for me, in terms of that coaching journey that started for me being coached about 20 years ago, is recognizing that frankly, I'm not going to go as far as my potential without that coaching, without that feedback, without that one-on-one in any of those areas. One of the things that you talk about in your coaching, and I love this, and I'm in full agreement, but I want you to talk to the listeners about this, is the difference between uh work-life balance, that is a myth, and whole life balance. Tell me a little bit more about that and how you kind of, you know, what are your thoughts around that?

SPEAKER_01: 25:35

Yeah. As an engineer, I think in mental models in that.

SPEAKER_05: 25:39

Love that. So again, you have those individual one-on-one relationships you have. You also have those group group mastermind or other group type relationships that really work out. I think both of those uh are spot on, again, in all the areas of our life. And again, now we get into a little bit more about the coaching again. You know, I often talk about in six areas. You got your work area that you need to have a coach in and that what you're doing, and it sounds like you do that as well, but there's also your faith, your fitness, your fun, your friendships or relationships that you have, and even your finances where you need coaches. And I think, at least for learning for me, in terms of that coaching journey that started for me being coached about 20 years ago, is recognizing that frankly, I'm not going to go as far as my potential without that coaching, without that feedback, without that one-on-one in any of those areas. One of the things that you talk about in your coaching, and I love this, and I'm in full agreement, but I want you to talk to the listeners about this, is the difference between uh work-life balance, that is a myth, and whole life balance. Tell me a little bit more about that and how you kind of, you know, what are your thoughts around that?

SPEAKER_01: 26:43

Yeah. As an engineer, I think in mental models in that.

SPEAKER_05: 26:47

Love that. So again, you have those individual one-on-one relationships you have. You also have those group group mastermind or other group type relationships that really work out. I think both of those uh are spot on, again, in all the areas of our life. And again, now we get into a little bit more about the coaching again. You know, I often talk about in six areas. You got your work area that you need to have a coach in, and that what you're doing, and it sounds like you do that as well, but there's also your faith, your fitness, your fun, your friendships, your relationship.

SPEAKER_01: 27:15

And when you say work-life balance, what's the picture that comes into your mind? And for most of us, it's a scale. It's that teeter-tottering scale. And so on one end is work, and on the other end is life. And so, what's the intention here? Are they supposed to be equal? And does that mean like eight hours at work, eight hours of life every day? Does it mean they're the same amount of fun? Does it like what does it mean for work and life to be equal? Because in my world, work is a part of my life. And so, how do I separate these two things? And what happens then is when I'm working, well, that's on the opposite side of life. So it must not be fun or life-giving because it's not over there on the life side of the balance. So work must just be a necessary evil to get back over to the life side. And I think that is an absolutely atrocious way to think about the precious gift of your time and energy on this world. Your vocation, your opportunity to work is a blessing. Work should be a life-giving experience. That doesn't mean every moment of every day, you're gonna love it. It can be stressful, it can be hard, it can be conflict. But what I seek is not a job that I want to retire from as soon as possible, but a job that while I'm doing it, I can feel aligned with my purpose and it creates meaning and joy and adds to my life and not the other way around. So I take a different mental model. Let's look at our whole life as one big circle. One, one VIN, a single circle VIN, if you will, you're a nerdy engineer. And I think the wheel of life tool, it's very common in life coaching. Most people will have seen something like this where you have these spokes that represent each of the areas. And you just mentioned a really great list of what those might be and fitness and faith and fun and family and finances. But you could choose any number of spokes that represent your life holistically. Two people may not have the same priorities of what they want to create balance around. And just ask yourself how satisfied, how fulfilled am I in these areas? And if you're really satisfied in your fitness, but your vocation and your work, you hate it. Well, every time that wheel of your life rolls around to the work spoke, you have this big jolt, this really uncomfortable ride. And so with my clients, we're seeking to create the most round and full experience of life possible. So that when you're at work, you're enjoying that, that's purposeful for you. When you're at home, you're enjoying that, that's meaningful and life giving for you. That's the way I want to live. That's the experience I want to. I want to from the more Moment I wake up until the moment my head hits the pillow, make as much of that feel like I'm squeezing the juice out of life as I can, not just, you know, I got to work to live. I think that's just a tragic, tragic way to view the gift of your life here on the earth.

SPEAKER_05: 30:15

Zach, so good. I had the picture that came to my mind. I wouldn't have the picture, it's more of a video is driving down the road about 61 miles an hour and the front wheels just start to wobble. And you can tell you're like, oh man. So I got to either drive slower or drive faster. Uh, but I need to be, you know, at a certain speed to get where I need to go. And so that pull balance in terms of all the way around the wheel is so important. Uh that's just another geeking out engineer thing, mechanical engineer. We could probably share those stories going on forever and ever uh as we go through that. The other thing I really uh admire uh about your work, Zach, specifically in terms of going from engineer to coach, but also that you've really uh what it appears to me on both your LinkedIn, and I'm gonna have a uh certainly have a link in the show notes to your LinkedIn profile so that folks can get in touch with you. But in other areas, your website, you have niched, niched, uh, whatever that is. You're very focused on your avatar, that is that engineering manager. Doesn't mean that's all that you work with, but very bold to be very focused and discussing that in your space. How has that created both maybe challenges for you in growing your business, but also maybe some fulfillment in your work as well? A little bit of both of that.

SPEAKER_01: 31:28

There's always a fear as a business owner of niching down that ideal client and being bold to say this is the person who I work with. And in my case, that bullseye target is an engineering manager, senior manager, that middle band of the engineering organization and some of the tangents, maybe product managers or project managers, but they come from a technical background. They share the deep analytical, logical, engineering worldview of life. Those people who've had some success, they're not new in their career, but they're not executives either. This is the place I focus. And the fear comes from well, if I exclude people, will my business suffer? And every new business owner can relate to this. It's like, I want to, I want to have the biggest net possible because you just want to get clients. You want to get business. And yeah, the truth is the opposite. So maybe to nerd out as an engineering example, I think of it like a venturi. And when you can create velocity on a single path, that one client who you're best suited to serve, which you already mentioned, Rory's quote, that we're we're best suited to serve the person whom we once were, and that's exactly who I was. So it's very easy for me to create a radical transformation for these leaders because I've been there, I've done that, I've had that transformation, we've done it hundreds of times now with other engineering managers. But what happens when you create that velocity with one client who you can really, really help is it creates this vacuum, this pull on the edges. So what's the picture that comes into your mind? And for most of us, it's a scale. It's that teeter-tottering scale. And so on one end is work, and on the other end is life. And so what's the intention here? Are they supposed to be equal? And does that mean like eight hours at work, eight hours of life every day? Does it mean they're the same amount of fun? Does it like what does it mean for work and life to be equal? Because so the senior engineer who's not a manager yet really wants into the program because they see the managers doing it. And the senior director who is feeling imposter syndrome because he or she never quite figured out this lifestyle balance and they're really unhappy, they want to join too. And now the supply chain leader who's not an engineer but resonates with this logical approach once in and it pulls people at the edges. So I just would encourage anybody who's an entrepreneur, a business owner, you know, and wants to take that bold step of niching down, it's worth it. There's a, you know, they say the riches are in the niches. And I think that's true because not only will it make it much easier to help that person, because you can tailor your product or service truly to the person who needs it most, but that venturi effect is real. And it takes courage to do it. But if you will commit to it, I have found it to be the best decision I've made in business. Love that.

SPEAKER_05: 34:22

Both as an entrepreneur, but also on look on the other side of that. I got to believe, and you touched on this a little bit about you as well. Uh, the engineering manager, aside from maybe the physician or the physician executive, the doctor, uh, has got to be one of the most set in their ways with regards to I can be my own hero. I can figure out the equation and I can get this done. So what you know, when somebody comes to you like that, what is a way that you kind of break that down and whether it's you know, humble them or certainly get them to see, make them aware of what they're not reaching with regards to their potential by not having a coach.

SPEAKER_01: 35:00

It's funny you mentioned this question because I've had countless mentors and advisors and my own coaches tell me, you know, Zach, your business could be 10 times this size if you would coach anyone else other than engineers, because they're so difficult to get off of their position and they're very, very skeptical of anybody trying to sell them anything. And so it is a big lift. But here's the truth. Number one is that your intention to serve them must be sincere and from a place of genuine love, or it won't land. If you are just trying to sell somebody something and make a buck, then you won't succeed at this. And I really, really do care about helping these people. And I think that comes through. And people will take a chance on doing my program just because they feel that sincerity. That's number one. Number two is that people will change from either inspiration or desperation. And so the most important thing for me to do for that engineering leader is have the courage in our interaction to shine a flashlight very directly on the part of their life that's either boldly inspired to become something more than they are today and help them gasp, feel the emotion of that. For an engineer, is like could be also a shocking experience. Or the opposite to to see that your life is trending in a direction that if you don't change, you will hit a rock bottom like I did, or like you see people around you hitting. And my job is today to show you that the path is going there, and you don't want to look at it, but I'm gonna make you look at it, and we're gonna do that together. And then when you ask, are you okay with that? Is that the life you want? 80 pounds overweight, no energy, not able to play with your kids, in a marriage that you can't stand, not advancing in your career at all, feeling stuck, bored, frustrated. Is that the life you want? And when someone looks right at that in a powerful coaching conversation and they know the truth, they know that's not what they want. Now they're willing to quote unquote get off the couch and do something about it. And so I think, you know, that's a a sales principle. It always has been, right? Show people the gap. And but I think that the truth of it is, especially in coaching, this is a really it's a really heartfelt process because you're asking somebody to look at an area of their life that they might not want to look at. And um, you know, it doesn't always happen, John. I mean, more people say no than yes to me. And sometimes they don't come back until two or three years later. I've had clients who say, Oh, I first started following you on LinkedIn back in 2020 and or 2021. And I always thought it was kind of a nonsense what you were saying. And now this happened in my life, or this just happened in my career, and I thought of you, and I need help.

SPEAKER_05: 37:49

Love that. And I again, I especially love the recognition of change happens, you know, when we're either in a point of inspiration, we recognize something, or at a point of desperation, no doubt about that. Zach, our conversation's been great. I could go on for a long time in terms of keeping going. How do you want folks to get in touch with you? I heard LinkedIn, but is there another way that you'd prefer they get in touch with you as well?

SPEAKER_01: 38:09

LinkedIn's always great. That's where I spend the most time if you're a social media person. But if you are an engineering manager or in a technical career path and this conversation specifically resonates for you and you'd like to explore coaching with the Oasis of Courage and getting help in your career for promotions and balance and lifestyle things we've talked about today, I would love to offer a free session for anybody who's listened to this podcast. So if they want to do that, just grab your phone and send me a text message. It's just one word. The word is lifestyle. You text me the word lifestyle, and it's one of those short codes. The number is 5544. So just text the word lifestyle to 5544, and I'll send you a quick reply, grab your name and email, and we'll send you a link to book a call with me and my team totally free. We'll do a deep dive, see where you're at, and if we can help you.

SPEAKER_05: 39:01

Love that, Zach. Very gracious of you to offer that. Hey, I want to give you the last word. You've been a phenomenal guest on the Uncommon Leader podcast. I know folks are going to find value in it. Always finish up with the same question. Uh, we touched on this a little bit with regards to Tim Ferris, and I borrowed this question from him, but it usually works out pretty well. Uh, I'm gonna give you a billboard. You can put any message you want to on that billboard, anywhere you want to put that billboard. What's the message given that limited space that you put on that billboard, and why do you put that message on there?

SPEAKER_01: 39:30

So the senior engineer who's not a manager yet really wants into the program. Four words crush comfort, create courage. That is the mantra of my business here at the Oasis of Courage. It's what I challenge all of my clients to do. It's something that I personally seek to live by. And what I've found, John, is that everything I've ever deeply desired in my life is not found in my comfort zone. It's always a step beyond. And to get beyond your comfort zone requires. It's going to call and demand on you to have courage in this life. I think courage is the X factor. Courage is not optional for you to reach your full potential and to be happy, to live a life of love. So crush comfort, create courage.

SPEAKER_05: 40:16

Zach, so good. Hey man, I appreciate you being a guest on the Uncommon Leader podcast. I even think some of my Purdue friends are going to like this in terms of listening in, given that you're a Purdue engineer. My West Virginia folks won't hold it against you at all. No doubt about it. But ultimately, I'll put the links in the show notes. I love that as a final message as you finish up. Listen up, folks, if you want to learn more about Zach White and what he has to offer, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 40:41

That is the mantra of my business here at the Oasis of Courage. It's what I challenge all of my clients to do. It's something that I personally seek to live by. And what I've found, John, is that everything I've ever deeply desired in my life is not found in my comfort zone. It's always a step beyond. And to get beyond your comfort zone requires. It's going to call and demand on you to have courage in this life. I think courage is the X factor. Courage is not optional for you to reach your full potential and to be happy, to live a life of love. So crush comfort, create courage.

SPEAKER_05: 41:19

Zach, so good. Hey man, I appreciate you being a guest on the Uncommon Leader podcast. I even think some of my Purdue friends are going to like this in terms of listening in, given that you're a Purdue engineer. My West Virginia folks won't hold it against you at all. No doubt about it. But ultimately, I'll put the links in the show notes. I love that as a final message as you finish up. Listen up, folks, if you want to learn more about Zach White and what he has to offer.

SPEAKER_01: 41:44

That is the mantra of my business here at the Oasis of Courage. It's what I challenge all of my clients to do. It's something that I personally seek to live by. And what I've found, John, is that everything I've ever deeply desired in my life is not found in my comfort zone. It's always a step beyond. And to get beyond your comfort zone requires. It's going to call and demand on you to have courage in this life. I think courage is the X factor. Courage is not optional for you to reach your full potential and to be happy, to live a life of love. So crush comfort, create courage.

SPEAKER_05: 42:22

Zach, so good. Hey man, I appreciate you being a guest on the Uncommon Leader podcast. I even think some of my Purdue friends are going to like this in terms of listening in, given that you're a Purdue engineer. My West Virginia folks won't hold it against you at all. No doubt about it. But ultimately, I'll put the links in the show notes. I love that as a final message as you finish up. Listen up, folks, if you want to learn more about Zach White and what he has to offer.

SPEAKER_01: 42:46

That is the mantra of my business here at the Oasis of Courage. It's what I challenge all of my clients to do. It's something that I personally seek to live by. And what I've found, John, is that everything I've ever deeply desired in my life is not found in my comfort zone. It's always a step beyond. And to get beyond your comfort zone requires. It's going to call and demand on you to have courage in this life. I think courage is the X factor. Courage is not optional for you to reach your full potential and to be happy, to live a life of love. So crush comfort, create courage.

SPEAKER_05: 43:25

Zach, so good. Hey man, I appreciate you being a guest on the Uncommon Leader podcast. I even think some of my Purdue friends are going to like this in terms of listening in, given that you're a Purdue engineer. My West Virginia folks won't hold it against you at all. No doubt about it. But ultimately, I'll put the links in the show notes. I love that as a final message as you finish up. Listen up, folks, if you want to learn more about Zach White and what he has to offer.

SPEAKER_01: 43:49

That is the mantra of my business here at the Oasis of Courage. It's what I challenge all of my clients to do. It's something that I personally seek to live by. And what I've found, John, is that everything I've ever deeply desired in my life is not found in my comfort zone. It's always a step beyond. And to get beyond your comfort zone requires. It's going to call and demand on you to have courage in this life. I think courage is the X factor. Courage is not optional for you to reach your full potential and to be happy, to live a life of love. So crush comfort, create courage.

SPEAKER_05: 44:28

Zach, so good. Hey man, I appreciate you being a guest on the Uncommon Leader podcast. I even think some of my Purdue friends are going to like this in terms of listening in, given that you're a Purdue engineer. My West Virginia folks won't hold it against you at all. No doubt about it. But ultimately, I'll put the links in the show notes. I love that as a final message as you finish up. Listen up, folks, if you want to learn more about Zach White and what he has to offer.

SPEAKER_01: 44:52

That is the mantra of my business here at the Oasis of Courage. It's what I challenge all of my clients to do. It's something that I personally seek to live by. And what I've found, John, is that everything I've ever deeply desired in my life is not found in my comfort zone. It's always a step beyond. And to get beyond your comfort zone requires. It's going to call and demand on you to have courage in this life. I think courage is the X factor. Courage is not optional for you to reach your full potential and to be happy, to live a life of love. So crush comfort, create courage.

SPEAKER_05: 45:30

Zach, so good. Hey man, I appreciate you being a guest on the Uncommon Leader podcast. I even think some of my Purdue friends are going to like this in terms of listening in, given that you're a Purdue engineer. My West Virginia folks won't hold it against you at all. No doubt about it. But ultimately, I'll put the encourage you to go to his website and check that out. Certainly connect with him on LinkedIn because his content that he has on there is really good. You probably know someone who heard this message and needs to hear it. I encourage you to share that with them, share this episode with them so they hear it, and ultimately it gets this message into the hands of more and more leaders who are looking to be uncommon. No doubt about that. And look, if it is something that you think you'd consider doing as well, write us a review. Let us know what you think and tag us in that review, and we'll we'll be in touch with you to let you know how much we appreciate that. Zach, once again, thanks so much for being a guest, and I look forward to uh staying connected with you. Best wishes to you in the future. Same to you, John. Thank you. Till next time, go and grow champions.