The Uncommon Leader Podcast

Episode 204: Travis Hann - Why Your Executive Search is Failing (and How to Fix It)

• John Gallagher • Episode 204

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Pedigree looks shiny on paper, but does it move the needle? We sit down with executive search leader Travis Hahn to unpack why big-name resumes often disappoint, and how defining outcomes, culture, and decision rights before you recruit leads to hires who actually deliver. From building trustworthy role profiles to reaching passive candidates who aren’t scrolling job boards, we dig into the practical steps leaders can take to raise the bar on both recruiting and retention.

Travis explains how a third-party perspective challenges title-driven thinking and surfaces the real work a role must do at your company’s specific stage. We explore the builder’s mindset—consistency, transparency, and a willingness to go beyond the job description—and how to spot it in interviews. Culture emerges as the true currency: when leaders grant ownership and share credit, teams move faster and stick around. You’ll hear success stories that took time and trust to compound, plus candid reflections on when “hire slow, fire fast” applies and when patience saves a future star.

• defining roles with outcomes, KPIs, and decision rights
• avoiding pedigree bias and testing for real impact
• recruiting passive leaders through trust and patience
• hire slow, fire fast but with context and care
• culture as currency for retention and speed
• builder’s mindset, ownership, and clear communication
• lessons from unreasonable hospitality on simple, human moments
• AI as an efficiency tool, not a replacement for judgment
• success stories that show compounding trust over time
• next steps for integrated human capital services

We also tackle the AI question head-on. Automation can sharpen operations and sourcing, but human judgment remains essential for confidential, high-stakes leadership searches. With AI amplifying noise in the applicant pool, curated pipelines and authentic conversations matter more than ever. Along the way, Travis pulls leadership lessons from golf and hospitality, showing how simple, human gestures—clarity, inclusion, and respect—create experiences people remember and cultures they choose to stay in.

If you’re a founder or mid-market leader tired of expensive mis-hires and constant churn, this conversation offers a clear path forward: define the work, avoid pedigree traps, recruit builders, and keep your promises. Subscribe, share with someone wrestling with their next leadership hire, and leave a review telling us your biggest hiring challenge—we’ll tackle it in a future episode.

𝐂𝐨𝐧𝐧𝐞𝐜𝐭 𝐰𝐢𝐭𝐡 Travis Hann:👇
➡️ 𝐋𝐢𝐧𝐤𝐞𝐝𝐈𝐧 (primary): https://www.linkedin.com/in/travis-hann/
➡️ 𝐖𝐞𝐛𝐬𝐢𝐭𝐞: https://penderhowe.com/en/

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SPEAKER_01:

I think what it goes back to and the common denominator that I've seen a lot of times with testing leaders is how you do one thing is how you do all things, right? And that's always my take. And that goes to the very simple things of floppy communication is probably, you know, floppy expectations for your team, it's probably a floppy job to client, right? And it all kind of starts with things that are relatively easy to control.

SPEAKER_00:

Hey uncommon leaders, welcome back. This is the Uncommon Leader Podcast. I'm your host, John Gallagher. I'm excited about my conversation today. Look, leadership today and the key leaders of organizations, identifying and retaining that top talent is one of the critical topics that leaders face today. How do they not lose the top talent that they have? But when they do need new talent, how do they find it and make sure that that hire isn't so expensive? My guest today is Travis Hahn. He's a co-founder and managing partner of Pender and Howe Executive Search Company. He's going to talk about some of those barriers that leaders must overcome, some of those blind spots that they have in their recruiting and retention process, but also talk about how leaders can overcome that. So I'm real excited about that conversation today. And it goes back really, Travis, as we learn more about him and his competitive spirit. We'll talk about how that uh started out on the golf course and really ultimately how that frames uh who he is as the managing partner of his organization today and a board member of an executive search line as well. So, Travis Han, welcome to the Uncommon Leader Podcast. Great to have you on the show. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks, John, for having me. Excited to be here. That's a great intro and all is good. I'm excited for our chat.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's good. I think it's gonna be a great chat. And again, aligns so much with some of the conversations I'm having with leaders today. But let's just let me put it out there the way I hear it today. Uh, leaders of organizations, especially some of those mid-market companies that we talk about today, they may have been founders themselves, bootstrapped the organizations and brought them up to the size that they are. They think they're fantastic at identifying top talent. Yet they make it so difficult at times and they missed, swing and miss so many different times. In your work right now as a founder of an organization back in 2019, what are some of the biggest challenges? What are the some of the biggest blind spots that you see that leaders have that prevent them from putting good talent in place?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it it you're when you're dealing with people, it's always difficult, right? John, people are unpredictable. They're also amazing. And uh, you know, being able to assess and truly judge one's uh capability of making an impact on your organization or being the right cultural fit, I don't know if there's a playbook that has all the answers on exactly how to do it, right? There's so many great books out there, there's so many ways to get inspired on how to do it better. Um, but I've found in my experience in running this firm, building my team and also supporting our clients on building their teams. Uh we've had a lot of different interviews, we've had a lot of different placements, some more successful than others, and that's just the reality of the business. I think what it goes back to and the common denominator that I see in a lot of times assessing leaders is uh how you do one thing is how you do all things, right? And that's always my take. And that goes to the very simple things of sloppy communication is probably, you know, sloppy expectations for your team, it's probably a sloppy job for the clients, right? And it all kind of starts with things that are relatively easy to control. And when you're trying to build your own team or you're looking to hire for your team, one of the things that's very easy to get blinded by is pedigree or coming from a big company that you find very fascinating that's going to make an impact in the market when you hire them. And, you know, to answer your question, I believe that that is the uh that can be very dangerous, right? Uh when you're getting blinded from where someone's coming from or where they went to school versus, hey, can this person actually come in and make an impact on my organization? You know, what are they actually saying that they're going to do? And let's double click on that versus getting blinded by where they come from. And I see that time and time again where, you know, you know, standard-driven businesses or investor back businesses, even, you know, they want someone from a certain organization and they get blinded by only knowing what they know versus really digging deep on what's out there that can come in and make a true impact on their business.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, you talked about that, uh, good man, and some of the things that I've seen on your website, as well as a couple other podcasts that you've on, that it's not just about those results or those big names, but it's also about the behaviors or the alignment with values, in essence, character that comes along with that. My guess is that many of the founders that you end up working with or leaders you end up working with, they've tried it on their own first, uh and they finally admitted that they aren't able to find who they need to, and they need a professional to ultimately help them out. It's kind of like a good doctor as well to take care of themselves first until they realize they don't know how to take care of, you know, take care of yourselves as a patient. But what is it that you are able to do to help those organizations identify uh what might be some of the things that they miss, like those character issues and the values issues. What do you see?

SPEAKER_01:

There's a lot of power in having a you know a third-party voice in the room challenge the status quo a little bit. When companies, founder-driven companies, specifically of what you just mentioned, a lot of times, you know, John, they're looking to fill a role that has a title. Um and the reality is in different organizations of different sizes, uh, titles don't mean a whole lot, right? I had a great meeting yesterday with a family-run business. Uh they're they've grown from about 40 employees to 100 employees now, and they're at a point where they need uh a director of HR uh and administration. And um that role looks very different at a hundred person family run company than it does at a thousand-person company, right? And you really need to uh assess the role and ensure that their expectations of what that role is, what they actually need before you go to the market, right? Sometimes, and I'm guilty of this, I mean the founder mentality is fast, let's go tomorrow. Um but sometimes it's okay to take a breather, sleep on it. Let's actually make sure the seat we're looking to fill encompasses everything that we're looking to tackle within our organization. So I think that's the misconception of our industry is that we just go out and find four or five names that are great, assess them based on what we know and present them to the search committee. But real magic comes from actually creating that role profile and ensuring that it encompasses everything that they want. Because even if you do go and recruit based on what you're initially told from the company, um, you also want to make sure expectations are set, right? We've seen it time and time again where you recruit somebody that is great, the interview processor is amazing, they get settled in two months in, they're like, oh, geez, this is really not what was articulated to me in the process, right? So it's super important to craft what that role actually is, what the expectations are, the KPIs, the impact that it should have, and then go out and find that. Um to kind of put a bow on this topic, though. One of the things that search consultants take a different approach at versus trying to do it yourself is some of the greatest people that are actually qualified for the roles we're searching for, John, they're not searching for a job, right? They're they're good, they're busy, they're head down at their organization making an impact. And the last thing they're going to do is proactively apply to a job that may come across their desk. And that's where we come in, right? We come in to really make that happen. And uh, you know, I had just uh look at my own team, for example, somebody that we had just hired at, you know, it took nine months of kind of back and forth getting to know each other the first few times with a no, I'm good, uh, but I know the nature of the beast, right? And it takes, you know, good things happen and it takes time.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, you you say that I think it's spot on. I mean, many times, you know, the folks that we end up finding who look good with a resume, but they're unemployed, oftentimes they're unemployed for a reason. Um your ability to go in, build relationships uh with those individuals who may not actually be uh looking specifically. It probably doesn't say on their LinkedIn profile green ribbon that says, I'm looking for a job kind of thing. It's something that uh and they're also not looking on LinkedIn for jobs to to make that happen. So being able to identify that talent uh is probably something in your organization that you have to constantly do. How do you manage those relationships and ultimately uh identify that talent for organizations?

SPEAKER_01:

There's a level of trust building, right? Like any sort of uh consulting style services-based business that uh you don't jump into everything on the first date, right? And uh it's the same in our business. I mean, you want to build a sense of trust and uh belonging in that uh conversation before you try and dig deeper into better understanding their moves, their impact, their success. Uh and I think that's important to know, right? It's relationship building, it's like dating, it's like a marriage, it takes time. And that's why really great leaders take time to land, right? And and to your point, John, you know, those who are, you know, perhaps out of work, maybe out of work for a reason. And I think that there's a common denominator there. But then there's also the reality of some people just have really bad luck, right? And if you do to better understand that they're in, you know, investor-backed businesses that have gone through a couple of acquisitions back to back that they didn't have disability on, that stuff does happen, right? And uh it's our job to dig deep on that before presenting somebody like that and be the voice in the room to explain as their agent, this is why, this is why, this is why, right? And uh that's important. And not all uh, you know, not everyone's made equal, right? And when I think of uh the saying, you know, hire slow, fire fast, I think there's a lot of truth in that, but for different reasons. But I also kind of put a little bit of uh uh, you know, an asterisk on that, but but not too like, you know, hire slow, fire fast, but not too fast, right? And the reality is different people require different things, right? You might have an exceptional person in the organization who just is a slower start, right? It takes a little while to get going and they need a bit more support before they can kind of get the training wheels off. But you got to be able to identify that, right? And ensure that it's not a cultural spoil because that's a different reality, uh, someone that's gonna hurt your culture. But I would say that's my take on that.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you think about your development in that space and being able to recognize that? And I want to come back because I want to talk about the technology side of this here in just a minute as well, that can both help and hinder you. But how did you kind of identify that this is the space? Again, you're young, you didn't found a company uh back in 2019, but that this was the space that you thrived in and that you wanted to be successful in.

SPEAKER_01:

And the joking answer is that I'm a failed competitive golfer, and this is where I ended up, John.

SPEAKER_00:

But uh back to that resume, right? You're like, oh, it's hard to tell. He's he's unemployed for a reason. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's right. So there's always a story behind the story. Uh you know what? And I was always amazed and fascinated by how competitive golf is as a sport, and how what I thought was good was subpar in other markets and other regions and other golf courses. And there was always someone better. And even those who I knew, there were light years behind those who were actually on TV, right? So there was always that kind of question of boy, what makes them exceptional? There's got to be something, right? And I ended up choosing the professional route versus an athletic route to post-university. Uh, but I tied that into my profession of what makes great leaders great, right? What makes organizations thrive? Why do some organizations build at an unstoppable pace where others can't get past a certain threshold, right? And I became obsessed with trying to figure that out. Long and behold, I, you know, I became a recruiter. And uh in 2019, uh I built Pender and Howe to really prioritize a different kind of style of search and to dig deeper with the organizations that we're working with to better understand what makes them great and what is lacking, perhaps, to allow them to kind of you know unbreak that barrier. So it really came from sports and athletes. And uh, and this is kind of where I ended up, but I absolutely love it. It's pretty contagious.

SPEAKER_00:

No, I can tell there's a passion inside of that in terms of the conversations we had both before and after we hit that record button. And you mentioned it, like some of these companies, they kind of have it in the recruiting process, in the retain process, and some of them don't. What are some of the attributes of those organizations that do really well on the retention side? And while others seem, you know, ultimately to get stuck in the constant rehiring process.

SPEAKER_01:

There's a few, John, and I don't know if one is the exact answer, but they're just my observations. The my saying is culture of the currency, right? You have some organizations, some companies that uh pay very competitive wages higher than their competitors down the street, but but have a lot of turnover, right? And to tie this back to sports a little bit, for those golf listeners, you know, you have the PGA tour that's been around for a long, long, long time. And then you had a competing tour Live that came on the market, and now you're starting to see the Live guys leave, right? And I think that's a perfect analogy and story to show that culture is a currency, right? Money can't control everything. And these guys got paid uh unusual amounts of money, and even now they're looking at trying to come back, right? Um, because there's that cultural aspect. And I think culture is number one, John. I mean, you need more than culture for people to stay, right? And uh what I tie into what makes a great culture is you have to trust your team, right? Leaders who enter conversations, and I see this a lot where it's a lot of I did this, I did this, I did this. The reality is there was an army behind them that helped them execute that strategy that they definitely helped focalize, right? And when you put trust in your team, they feel a sense of ownership, they feel a sense of pride on a project to see it through. And the reality is when you get all those mechanisms working together, companies start moving at paces that one individual cannot do alone. Um and I had a meeting with a client and one of the consultants on my team who was with me, and it was a really amazing moment where it was, I was a founder talking with another founder and a consultant on my team. And she looked at me and she's like, Oh, so that you founded this. This is your baby. And I said, Yeah, it is. And I smiled, and then my consultant stepped in, she's like, Well, it's our baby. We all feel like it's our baby. And it was a really amazing moment, right? Because uh it just showed that I give enough power to them to make decisions that they feel a sense of ownership to see this organization thrive. And I think that's a really important uh piece of the pie for business owners and leaders to think about.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, you say that. I mean, look, I hear it all too often, the I, you know, whether you use the analogy of there's no I in team or whatever that is, but ultimately I did this, I did that. When you can hear the top leaders of the organization ultimately giving credit to those who help them build that up, you can tell that the culture is a little bit different. There's a little bit of humility in there. Because again, I I sense that when I work with organizations, especially that have that, I did this, I did that. There's a difficulty, even when they think they need to bring somebody else in to help them the organization or to fill a leadership gap, a difficulty in allowing those new leaders to run the organization. And I can see where that can lead, has led to and would lead to quick departures as well when they don't, when someone doesn't get a chance to work on it as a team, be invested into the culture and make a difference. I'm curious, and I love the stories of successes, both in challenges. And we talk about Live and the PGA tour. Uh, but in regards to your work, what's a success story that you have or you've helped an organization to transform through the process of helping them to identify a leader in your work?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's a great question. I worked on a lot of different assignments, I think, where there's been successful impact, but some perhaps hit home a little bit uh closer than others, John. Uh and my mind's spinning because there's a few that kind of come to mind. But I think one of them are there was an organization uh that was actually not too too far from your home. And uh, we were doing a CEO search for a company that was uh, you know, perhaps in a struggling phase to really identify their market positioning and to uh establish a culture and kind of at the point of, hey, is this gonna work or is this not gonna work in a business? And it was a smaller organization. Um, and trying to find a CEO who could understand that there's not a huge runway here, and they had the humility to step into a role, understanding the challenge that lies ahead and hopefully turn that business around so it can make something of it. And that was a few years ago. And three years in, you know, that business has following online about doubled in headcount size, really broken into different markets, diverse markets to uh not rely on one special segment that technology was in. And he's now moving into uh he was a CEO, but he's now moving into another role in the company to allow space for, you know, kind of the next step evolution of that business. And I think that's amazing, right? Because that could have gone very differently, perhaps with the wrong person in the seats, or if no one was identified to go in the seat. So just seeing, you know, businesses kind of go through cycles and continue their growth uh with the people that we place, John, is pretty amazing. And there's another one that comes to mind that we ended up just uh finishing a partnership in New York City where I think it goes back to the power of relationships and trust. Four or five years ago, there was a company that was coming in from Asia into the US, and they ended up pulling out shortly after we began a project for uh reasons that were outside of the control, just more or less uh they had uh, you know, a change in direction for their global expansion. Um four or five years went by, but there were constant phone calls and text messages as and you know, sharing insights and knowledge with the leaders over in Hong Kong. And sure enough, four years later they changed their uh direction again and they're coming back into the US. And guess who they call, right? And we just finished their market expansion with five critical leadership hires in New York. And it just goes that, you know, you really got to build a sense of trust, but good things take time, right? So I think those two stories are ones that stand out. One's more recent than another, but uh they're quite memorable and just kind of make it all work.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, common leaders. Hope you're enjoying the episode so far. I believe in doing business with people you like and trust and not just a company name. That's what a strong personal brand is essential, whether you're an entrepreneur or a leader within a company. Brand builders group, the folks who have been helping me refine my own personal brand are offering a free consultation call with one of their expert brand strategists. They'll help you identify your uniqueness, craft a compelling story, and develop a step-by-step plan to elevate your impact. So head on over to CoachJohnGallagher.com slash BBG, as in brand builders group. Schedule your free call and take the first step toward building a personal brand that gets you noticed for all the right reasons. That's coachjohngallagher.com slash BBG. Now, let's get back to the does make it worth it. It's almost back tech golf. It's almost like that, and that's just for me. So I wouldn't be able to stay professional and golf in the same conversation. I think we need to switch locations when it comes to that. Montreal does not have a very long golf season with Myrtle Beach is a hundred golf courses that you can play year-round, no doubt about it. But you know, that it's just that one good shot, man, how it felt when it, you know, you hit it crisp and clean and it does what it's supposed to. And again, that usually happens for me about once around the professional side. You probably experienced more of those, but that's how you keep folks coming back. It's just that one good feeling that keeps them coming back. Like you talked about that especially that first success story as well, the difference in organizations that kind of plateau at a certain revenue number, and ultimately with leadership that they're able to scale with regards to the success. It's more of a leadership question than a recruiting question. But Ned, as you've seen those success stories and maybe even a little bit about yourself and how you've scaled an organization, gotten pretty large as a recruiting firm. You know, what's that key skill or mindset of that leader who recognizes that need to bring in other leadership for success so that they can scale and not just grow or get stuck there?

SPEAKER_01:

It's a for us, John, it's a builder's mindset, right? It's not a come to work, clock in at nine, clock out at five. And that is pretty difficult to assess in an interview process, quite frankly. I think there's a couple of little tricks of the trade that we follow that allow us to give some insight into that. But for us, it's the builder's mindset. It's the roll up the sleeves and do things that are outside the job description because it's going to help the company move forward and it's going to help your team move forward. It's consistency, transparency, and just overall clarity in communication, right? For us. And I think that that's quite important. But the commonality here that you'll see in my answers that kind of all tie together is uh giving them trust, right? And giving them uh decision-making power. And of course, that needs to be done with guidance and there needs to be barriers. I mean, you can't give everyone the just the freedom to do and call any shot that they want to do, otherwise, an organization would be moving in all sorts of different directions and it would be kind of counterintuitive. But you got to trust your team, right? Allow them to make decisions, allow them to bring ideas to the table. I'm reading a really great book now that I'm sure you've read, but it's it's unreasonable hospitality. Oh, yeah. And yeah, there's so many great, you know, little leadership lessons in there that can be tied to all sorts of different professions. Uh one being, you know, how he brings the chefs, the busers, the sous chefs, everyone to the meetings, the kickoff meetings. And the reality is those crew members, they know more about what's going on in the back kitchen than the front staff do, right? And you know, despite title, he allows everyone to come to those meetings to kind of share their ideas, et cetera. And there's power in that, right? Because different perspectives see different things. And you bring all those together and you allow a company to start uh breaking down some different transparency walls that may exist in other organizations.

SPEAKER_00:

Love that. You know, as I think about this, and almost as I make a little bit of a shift into more about you know who Travis is, the the idea behind, well, first of all, unreasonable hospitality. My favorite story inside there is when one of the chefs or one of the servers went to the hot dog cart and brought it back out. If you haven't gotten to that one, uh it's a great story. And then, you know, I won't be able to tell it as well as the book does, and folks should read it. I think it's a great read. But you know, one of the uh mentors that I have now, he has a you know, really an epic quote from me. Uh we are most powerfully positioned to help the person that we used to be. Now, many times when I think about golfers and competitive golfing, even something you've probably grown up with, it feels more individual sport than team sport. You can talk about Ryder Cup and those types of things with regards to the team, but a lot of what you're talking about is going away from I and into the we. Do you have a story from your childhood ultimately that has really shaped uh who you are today as a person or as a leader that you still uh work through?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, for sure. I there's a lot that that come to mind, John. And I love that again, the golf analogy tying in because it is an individual sport, same with tennis, uh, same with skiing in many ways. Sure, there's team-oriented activities for for those uh sports, but the way that I look at those sports is there's only one person that can actually do the activity, right? And if you're standing on the first tee and there's thousands of people watching, you can't rely on anyone else but you to hit that ball, right? And I think there's a certain level of grit and power and courage that takes that other sports perhaps don't have as much of. Um, where my childhood goes back to and it all ties back into the the to the sport of golf. Um, you know, and and I come from a working class family, John, small town, only know what you kind of know in those environments as you grow up. And fortunately, really fortunately, found the passion of golf that no one else in my family had ever touched a golf club. So joined the local golf course and then that kind of transition into the local country club as I started to get a little bit better at the sport. And I think that was probably the turning point, you know, in my very younger years, John, to see how much more is out there than just the small part of that town that I was a part of in the working class in environment and the families. You start to see, you know, and this may come across as materialistic, but it just starts to become eye opening where you start to see fathers dropping their kids off in different style of cards that you see, right? And the family vacations that they're going on or the experiences of the schools are quite different than where I'm coming from. And I think that was just more of a light bulb moment to say. Geez, there's a whole lot out there that I don't know about. And that's where the curiosity kind of started to strike, right? And then one thing starts leading to another. And you start there's a saying, you know, you're the average of the four of the five people that you hang around with. And there's so much truth in that, right? And I strongly believe in that saying. And that's kind of what has has evolved, right? As you start to see different things, experience different things, have different conversations, and opportunities present themselves, right? And I always say you got to be a little bit good to be, and that's part of it.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. I think that's what is it? I'm a Pittsburgh Steeler fan. So for us, it's better to be lucky than good, because I don't think they're that good. But you're exactly right. Being good and uh working at it and becoming better at it ultimately uh seems to certainly bring some good luck into that mix. So I appreciate you sharing that story growing up because I think that's the other side, even again, working class, maybe being from a small town, myself, very much in a small town growing up not traveling a lot and not even realizing what might be possible. So that curiosity is there. I appreciate you also kind of, you know, you get the quotes from a couple books or you know, leaders that you have. Do you have a specific book or maybe an author or leader that uh you have found uh extremely uh connected to your story andor uh someone you emulate as a leader?

SPEAKER_01:

You know, I'm always and I say this in the talent world all the time when new people come into my organization, where I advise to have as many conversations with people as possible, and you're gonna love certain ways of how they do things and perhaps not love how they do certain things. And the whole idea in me suggesting that is you want to pull a few things out and kind of start making your own persona by inspiration that's gained by by other leaders. I'm a big biography reader. I think unreasonable hospitality is just the one that's sticking right now, which is fascinating. And uh, you know what I've come to kind of realize in that book and starting to realize when we're more in this professional journey is I know difficult conversations don't always have to be difficult, right? And so there's a lot of simplistic ways to I don't want to say dumb things down, but to address things that can be quite uh conflicting to many. And, you know, you mentioned the hot dog story in that book, and actually one of the stories that I love in that book, uh, or maybe it was uh the podcast I listened to that Will was on, but one of the awkward moments of running such a high-end restaurant that's quite expensive is bringing the bill, right? I mean, you're gonna see higher price tags at a restaurant of where they are than some others. And who pays the bill, where do you put the bill? Are you kicking them out of the restaurant after them enjoying their time? Like, how do we kind of address that situation? And you know, what he did was bring a beautiful bottle of whiskey, four glasses. You guys can have as much as you want. Here's the bill, take your time, no rush. The reality is most people only ever had one drink, but it just gave this sense of uh appreciation and pride, and that was the story they left the restaurant telling. It wasn't how much the bill was or who paid or anything like that. And I think it's just when you make things convenient and you address moments in certain ways, uh it doesn't always have to be complicated and conflicting, right? When you have to deal with uh more difficult situations. Now, putting a bill on a table isn't the most difficult situation I'm sure he's dealt with, but that's kind of what I took from that and kind of tied into my world a little bit.

SPEAKER_00:

But look, no, I mean when you're in high-ticket space, I mean, look, you're an executive search firm, you're putting a high ticket in front of organizations, there's no doubt about it. Uh, and I love the concept, and then we're probably selling uh books for Will here in terms of the unreasonable hospitality. Maybe he should send us a couple copies. But the the idea behind uh identifying that value uh so that folks know the last thing they remember is very important with regards to that work that you do. And I again I would imagine there's a significant piece of your business that's either repeat business andor referral business from folks that you work with. So much like the restaurant business, which is a tough business as well. I appreciate that. And speaking of, again, even as things change over time, for you, this is maybe less a personal question and more what you see happening in the industry, but everybody's being affected by AI. I gotta believe folks are thinking that AI can help to reduce their reliance on you uh as an executive search organization. What are you seeing and how do you see uh maybe you're using AI to be successful in your work?

SPEAKER_01:

We definitely are using it to be more efficient, transparent, and just making the experience of our employees better, the experience of our clients better, and candidates better, John. Um huge advocate for it from an operation standpoint. When it comes to replacing the human touch in such a human-driven industry, that's where we're already seeing that uh we don't feel a threat, quite frankly. And maybe we'll look back on this podcast in 10 years and I'm a goof for saying that, John. But uh the reality is humans trust humans, right? And I'm sure you haven't left many conversations with ChatGBT or Gemini and felt all amazing and exciting about the experience they gave you. Um but for us, what we're seeing, the actual realities in our industry, it's not so much on the executive level, because the reality is, John, so much of what we do is confidential work that it's very difficult to do that even in-house, let alone incorporate any sort of technology that might make that a bit easier for all sorts of different reasons. Um, but it's more on the lower level mid-management level of recruitment where uh internal talent teams rely on ATSs and resumes coming in. And there's so much challenge right now, from my understanding, to uh actually figure out what's a real applicant and what's a bot. Uh, you know, and it's yesterday, for example, I was on our company's LinkedIn page and I saw a fake profile that was associated with my company that doesn't work for my company. Um, of course, you have to report that. So that stuff exists out there, and with AI, it's just kind of uh mechanisms moving a little bit too quick. So that becomes now a lot of noise for internal talent teams that don't know what what the heck to do. Uh so from that standpoint, I actually think it makes our services even more uh of a reliable source for them to lean on for credibility, but also just knowing that it's gonna get the jobs going to get done. And not to mention, again, we don't see this at the executive level, but it's more of a joke in our industry of interviews, virtual interviews like this, and people are just reading off a screen based on what AI is feeding them to say to the conversation, right? So it's just it taking away a little bit from a true authentic conversation and experience. And you know, a few years ago, I was a huge advocate for this work virtual work, John. I thought it was super um efficient. And I still think that some flexibility in that model is here to stay, no doubt. Um, but I have a huge push for being back in person. I think events are coming back harder than ever. I think in-person collaboration and offices are coming back harder than ever. And the reality is people go stir crazy when they're not seeing people. That's just the human nature of who we are.

SPEAKER_00:

I think it's taken a while to come back. And I can imagine when you set your business up in 2019, you probably weren't quite prepared for the impact of 2020, like many other people who have gone through that space. This has been a great conversation, Travis. I'm curious, uh, I sense a book in there as a reader, as a writer, as some of the things that what's next for you? Do you write? Do you see yourself writing a book someday? Anything like that? What do you aspire to?

SPEAKER_01:

I'm a huge reader right now. I mean, I've got a young family, John, so trying to get through a book uh is half the battle these days, but uh my office is full of them, and I think there's always great lessons that you can kind of pull from different perspectives. I I think right now, head is very much down building a really awesome culture, really awesome company uh that people want to be a part of. And I'm very fortunate that is the case right now. And it's the balance of building and scaling without losing that, right? And I think hiring great people attract more great people, and that's what my focus is today. Um, we've got a lot ahead of us for the next two years to bring this company to the next level and make sure that we're offering clients services that they need to really round out their entire human capital experience as a business, right? So uh today we're predominantly all you know executive recruitment, but that will evolve and change over the next few years to ensure that we can kind of be a one-stop shop for companies that need support in the human capital space.

SPEAKER_00:

Love that, Travis. And I appreciate the uh recognition that uh time with family as well is also very important. And so you've got to uh work to harmonize, no doubt about it, especially with a young family. So maybe the book will be there 20 years. We'll see how that goes. Hey, how do folks get away?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I just need to go ahead. I I just need a quiet room to read a book and uh find that sometimes.

SPEAKER_00:

So I hear you. I think you gotta start stacking some habits, James clear away, get on the treadmill and listen to the books or whatever you gotta do. So yeah, uh something to do. Uh, how do folks get in touch with you, Travis?

SPEAKER_01:

So www.tenderhow.com, how is within e John. That's our website where all of our contact information exists. And of course, LinkedIn is a platform that's uh you know quite an important platform to connect and network with people like me and our industry. So Travis Hann at H A N N on LinkedIn is where I live.

SPEAKER_00:

Make sure to put both uh links for that in the show notes to go on. Travis, I've enjoyed our conversation today. I appreciate you investing some time with listeners. I'm gonna give you the last word here with my question. I love to finish things out and it gives you a chance to really share who you are a little bit as well. But I'm gonna give you a billboard. You can put it in Montreal if you want to, although it's probably covered up with snow right now in terms of when we're doing it. But wherever you want to put that billboard, I'm gonna give it to you. What's the message you're gonna put on that billboard for others and why do you put that message on there? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, hey, if it's in Montreal, it's gonna be in French, and you don't want to hear my French, so we'll keep it to English somewhere else. But uh the billboard would say uh hustle hard and ignore the noise. That's what the billboard would say. I think it speaks for itself, but I think uh ignore all the noise that's out there, uh roll up the sleeves, hustle hard, execution each strategy for breakfast.

SPEAKER_00:

So just kind of get to it. Awesome. Hustle hard, ignore the noise. Distractions exist all around us. Uh they start with our phones and many of the things that we can uh find stealing our time. Travis, again, I appreciate you investing the time with the listeners of the Uncommon Leader podcast. I wish you the best in the future. Thanks again. Thanks, John. It was a pleasure. And Common Leaders, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Travis. If you enjoyed it, I really would appreciate it, and I know he would as well if you'd share it with your network. Do you know somebody who uh is looking to upgrade their talent inside of organizations and they're facing challenges with how they fire slow or maybe have to fire fast, actually, one of those things that's going on inside the organization. Ultimately, though, we can't get that story into their hands if you don't share it. So I appreciate if you would share it. Also, if you enjoyed this episode and you haven't done so before, we certainly would appreciate it if you give us a five-star review on whichever platform it is that you listed. Those things help us to get this podcast into the hands and ears of many other listeners. Until next time, go and go championship.

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